Letting an 8 year old go on a Brownies trip in this climate?

[RebelGirl034]

My DD wants to go on a weekend trip with Brownies soon. I know that their trans policy has been updated, I've read it and what it means in practice is that a man who identifies as a woman could, theoretically speaking, be amongst the adults on the trip and even be helping the girls in the shower or whatever. I mean, it sounds crazy but the policy allows it and the parents wouldn't even be told. Same if there was a male child who identified as a girl, he would share girls' accommodation etc. The chances for any of this happening in my DD's particular group on this particular trip are remote, but then, chances for harm to children are usually remote (thankfully) but we still don't leave it to chance. What would you do? Would you let your DD go and think probably none of this will happen? I'm not saying such a person would be deliberately out to harm them, I'm concerned about the principle of the matter and also emotional impact on DD who would be very confused and possibly frightened. I'd welcome thoughts and suggestions. Many thanks.

Personally? Assuming I was familiar with the group and the leaders/helpers attending I would let them go. Odds are it will be fine but it is your call really.

If you are OK with her being a Brownie in the first place, I see no reason to deny her their camp

You either need to support your local group or find a new activity. I don't think it is fair to your DD to enrol her in a group and then prevent her joining in fully, it is the worst of all worlds.

Yeah it's perfectly fine,hope your dd has fun!

I would be hesitant.

I remember going on a Brownie camp myself as a child, we were not the only group there, there were other Brownie packs from other towns. So even if your daughter's Brownies were all-female, you can't know that the other packs would be.

It's the whole 'parents won't be told' thing, isn't it? If I'm entrusting my child to you, I need you to be straight with me, and the Brownies/Guides just aren't willing to do that right now.

On balance - I don't think I could let my daughter go. And it fucking well grates , but I don't think I would entrust her to the Brownies these days.

You will already know the leaders and they will inform you exactly which adults will be there.
Girl guiding is very woke at the top but this is not reflected in the leaders actually leading the packs. Or at least none of the leaders i I know are.

I'm a rainbow leader btw.

Think @veryboredtoday has it about right. My daughter is just about to go on pack holiday this weekend, but totally trust her leaders.

If I had any significant doubts or lack of familiarity with the leaders, volunteers or safety procedures in place I would either not send my child to an activity or volunteer to help and go as well - at least on the first occasion so I can see what I think of the adults in charge and assess their competence.

Scouts rather than guides here but guessing safeguarding in both very similar...
An adult should not be alone with one child
We can not enter showers the kids are using (if they even use them!)
Your leaders will look after their kids

I'm pretty sure I never showered at all when at Brownie camp it its only 1 or 2 nights perhaps baby wipes and a flannel will do the job for your DD?

You could ask the leader about their policy in this area and how it relates to safeguarding and ask the leader to talk you through it and what it means in practice, then see if you are happy with that or not?

So like here: ‘sex’ is not included even though it’s a protected characteristic:
www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/

Also here, this statement: I think EHRC have updated their guidance which GGUK day they will keep abreast of, so perhaps you could ask how GG UK have responded since they issued this statement?
www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/coverage-of-equality-diversity-policy/

But the main policy seemingly unchanged from 2017 is this:
www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/

This says:

Transgender and gender reassignment

‘Girlguiding aims to support all girls and young women. This is understood in terms of the way a person self-identifies their gender identity - a person’s inner sense of self.
A transgender person is someone who feels that the sex they were assigned at birth (male or female) does not match or sit easily with their sense of their own gender. Trans people include:
those who were assigned male at birth whose gender is female (trans women)
those who were assigned female at birth whose gender is male (trans men)
those who do not identify as ‘male’ or ‘female’ (non-binary people).
‘Gender reassignment’ is when a person takes steps to alter the outward expression of their gender so that it better aligns with ther sense of who they are or, in other words, their identity.
If a child or young person self-identifies as a girl or young woman then they are able to join any of our youth sections appropriate to their age.
We understand that if a young member is transitioning from female to male that they will be experiencing a great amount of change and uncertainty. Flexibility and the Leaders’ discretion in conversation with the parents must be used to determine how long the child stays within the unit.
If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding and may, if they wish, make their Promise.
If an adult self-identifies as not being a woman then they are able to take volunteer roles that do not require them to complete a Leadership Qualification or to make their Promise. This includes the role of Unit Helper and support roles such as Adviser or Coordinator.
We understand that there will be times when an adult may be transitioning from female whilst in membership and they may be experiencing a great amount of change and uncertainty. Flexibility and discretion must be used whilst in conversation with the person about any potential changes to their role in guiding and any decisions about how these changes take place should be jointly agreed. More information on volunteer roles in guiding.
Additional guidance has been produced to help leaders and volunteers to support our trans members.
Published: 11 January 2017
Girlguiding policies and procedures are reviewed and updated from time to time as part of a review cycle.’

They also have a page specifically about supporting trans people who feel their gender fits with GGUK’s remit of Girls and women. www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/
As the page says; This guidance was developed with support from Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence.

Sorry OP what I meant to add at the top of my post was- I don’t think the GG UK policy HAS been updated or at least not since 2017 when it first was discussed on here because it classified children and adults by self ID on gender.

But it does say they will keep it under review, so you could always ask if there is any more recent change since 2017 position, since your OP shows a number of questions about that.

The policy about safeguarding is also good to look at if you are concerned about showering etc. There isn’t much detailed policy I could see about it but some info here and they have contacts you can call to talk about safeguarding: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/safety-and-safeguarding-policy/good-safeguarding-behaviours/

I think you're being ridiculous. The chances, as you say, are so slim anyway, but just because someone's transgender, it doesn't mean your daughter is at any more risk than she is with the current female group leaders.

but just because someone's transgender, it doesn't mean your daughter is at any more risk than she is with the current female group leaders.

It absolutely does if they’re Male, that is factual and the reason for safeguarding which GG have abandoned when it comes trans people.

I would discuss with the leader, ask who else will be at the camp etc If you are assured that proper safeguarding is in place, let her go. But I would be very careful.

I thought you meant in the rain!

My dd is 10 and has been on multiple brownie/ guide/ band/ school residentials. The same thing is going to apply in each case surely? Are you going to deny your dd all trips?
I don’t see a problem if you know the leaders.

I had real trouble deciding whether to let my dd join rainbows for this reason. I didn't want her to get started and then not let her go on camps etc later. I have decided that I will rely on the 'local leaders aren't batshit even if gghq are' theory. I'm lucky to have a close relation involved so she will be able to let me know the inside scoop. It's so shit though to have to do this, I loved brownies and guides and always looked forward to my dds being part of it. Now its a worry.

They are little kids, brownies ends at 10. Stop worrying about things that are not a problem

Also as well as safeguarding issues with men and women and girls- which have statistical reality behind them, what’s wrong with parents wanting their daughters to experience a genuinely all-female social environment?
For many parents that is the appeal of GGUK. Before they changed policy in 2017.

Bloody hell. Talk about paranoia.

She'll be fine. To stop her going because there's an infinitesimal chance there'll a) be a trans person on the trip and b) that trans person will be abusive, is just insane. Will you stop her going on school trips if a male teacher is there?

Seriously, get a grip. She's going on a brownie camp with other kids and a bunch of adults. She's unlikely to ever be alone, for starters.

I loved brownies and guides and always looked forward to my dds being part of it. Now its a worry

Simply because the organisation has been transparent about its approach? Your child will be involved in lots of groups/school activities that you won't have a clue about.

How many trans people are there in your community? A tiny number if any I guess. What proportion of will be brownie leaders? What proportion of trans brownie leaders (if there even are any in the country) will be abusive? What are the odds of one of those being in your particular child's brownie pack?

Seriously. Think logics and statistics. And never let your child ever cross a road.

It’s not just about abuse, but personal boundaries. We shouldn’t be raising girls to think they have to get undressed in front of adult men, it’s meant to be a red flag scenario. It’s basic safeguarding the OP is concerned about. Different safeguarding exists if there’s males present, but it won’t if the organisation treats them as female on their say-so. That’s the issue.

There's nothing to stop you volunteering as a parent helper and going on the trip.
You'll need to get a scouting CRB (may be a guiding one, as they are separate organisations).
Brownies, Guides, Scouts and Cubs, etc. desperately need more volunteers, so you would be made most welcome.
Lots of parents "send" their kids on camps and trips without ever contributing themselves, and it's really quite rewarding if you're prepared to do it.