Letting an 8 year old go on a Brownies trip in this climate?

[RebelGirl034]

My DD wants to go on a weekend trip with Brownies soon. I know that their trans policy has been updated, I've read it and what it means in practice is that a man who identifies as a woman could, theoretically speaking, be amongst the adults on the trip and even be helping the girls in the shower or whatever. I mean, it sounds crazy but the policy allows it and the parents wouldn't even be told. Same if there was a male child who identified as a girl, he would share girls' accommodation etc. The chances for any of this happening in my DD's particular group on this particular trip are remote, but then, chances for harm to children are usually remote (thankfully) but we still don't leave it to chance. What would you do? Would you let your DD go and think probably none of this will happen? I'm not saying such a person would be deliberately out to harm them, I'm concerned about the principle of the matter and also emotional impact on DD who would be very confused and possibly frightened. I'd welcome thoughts and suggestions. Many thanks.

Obviously, i don't know your Brown Owl but i thought I would point out that they are volunteers and give up an enormous amount of time for free. This may explain her reaction especially if she's not really aware of the debate and probably doesn't understand where your concerns are coming from.
In my area, i had a brief chat about the issue when it originally surfaced and to be honest, most hadn't got a clue what it was all about. I'm just saying as I think this debate is not high up on the agenda for most leaders and may wonder why you are asking about it.

If you go as a volunteer you can take your 6 year old. They will provide him with separate sleeping accommodation (yes, yes, I know).

I would say "the policy states that all individuals must be comfortable with sleeping arrangements. I am not comfortable with my child sharing a room or washing facilities with a biological boy. Can you assure me she will not have to? As otherwise you are not following your policy about all individuals being comfortable with sleeping arrangements."

When my children go away for overnights I worry about...
Whether they may fall ill and I’m not there
Whether the transportation and driver is safe
Whether she might feel homesick and sad

Whether or not there may be a trans man in the mix... bloody hell, get some perspective and whilst you’re at it - some grasp of probabilities OP!

I moved mine out of guiding as I wasn't happy with the direction the organisation is going in (and the rainbow leader openly hated dd1) but mine are going camping with the beavers in a few weeks - we've all been informed of who is sharing a tent with who and the kids given a decent bit of input into the choices. We know who is grouped with who for daytime activities as well - and I have some concerns with a kid in the other unit going on camp (bullies dd2 at school - hence being in the other unit as we try to avoid where possible) and leaders have no issue keeping them as separate as possible.

Don't think at least locally we would have got that level of confidence with the guiding groups - but part of that involves some of the personalities involved on a local scale.

Predatory men, sadly, are all over the place and if GG safeguarding is inadequate then you may well end with an individual like this taking advantage. Unlikely, maybe, impossible, definitely not!

It’s not about trans issues and inclusivity it’s about basic safeguarding and risk assessments. The scouts have listened and changed their approach, why aren’t the GGs?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/local-news/youth-trainer-given-life-sentence-3728322.amp

bloody hell, get some perspective and whilst you’re at it - some grasp of probabilities OP!

It’s you that needs to get perspective, and understand why this is a safeguarding issue- do you know what that means? GG doing away with the usual safeguarding for Male and females means that ADULT males as well as male children, may be sharing sleeping, showering or in the case of adults, giving intimate care. If you don’t think boys commit sexual assaults then you are incredibly ignorant.

I would be worried. This reflects the fact that a young female relative of mine has been the victim of serious sexual abuse by a male who exploited a position of trust. In consequence I wouldn’t want my daughter staying overnight in a potentially mixed sex environment, unless I knew the man/men concerned well.

We are generally naive until we meet abusers. This is why we need to know if there are men with access to our children.

Up to 5% of the male population are paedophiles - it’s really not that unusual!

OMG that map.. anyone who suggests the OP should get a grip has got their head stuck in the sand.

That map is just for convictions.. think of all those where the case collapsed, or those that were never reported.

I am a male Beaver leader. Now admittedly I identify as male, so not the same issue.

We take girls on camps and sleepovers, as well as boys. We have robust safeguarding procedures in place to protect everyone. Mostly common sense, but we stick to it firmly. Why wouldnt you?

Sometimes Beavers do need to share sleeping space. For example a hall that oy has one room for the Beavers and one room for the adults. Adults never share with children - full stop. They will always have private areas to change, wash etc. Its just the lying down and sleeping bit that is sometimes mixed. Again, common sense. Its not gender specific either, we make sure boys can access privacy from other boys if they wish, for example.

And as for adults helping children shower as mentioned above, its not going to happen. For goodness sake! Of course if a child with additional needs is with a known carer (usually a parent), but we apply procedure there too.

The thing is that gender and sex need not and should not be an issue if the correct procedures are in place. That goes for both adults and children.

I also coordinate the DBS applications for our group. When a new adult is DBS checked, their previous identities ARE checked too. In fact I can tell you that previous forenames is one of the questions that the DBS asks. If a person lied about this it would soon be flagged up (the DBS knows more about us than many realise).

Please volunteer to help your group if you can. They should welcome the support. I would say to be prepared to be treated as a leader rather than a parent though. We had a parent who tends to stick their own child and we had to nip it in the bud.

Sorry that this post has a negative tone. It is just so demoralising when we generally care so much about what we do only to have it thrown back at us.

chow have you actually read up on what the issues are within Girl Guiding?

chowhound

You don’t seem to be aware of the issues we are discussing or the changes to GG policy which affect the usual safeguarding procedures.

Okay, maybe its just easier for us as an organisation being mixed, and have had male and female leaders since the beginning.

It is just so demoralising when we generally care so much about what we do only to have it thrown back at us.

Please don’t tell parents that concerns over safeguarding is ‘throwing back at’ an organisation that had abandoned safeguarding for a certain small group of people. People send their girls to GG because it is single sex. To not be informed a Male is going to be present, to treat that male as female for safeguarding purposes, is a big issue for parents. It is a valid concern. Your feelings are not more important than the safety of children.

have had male and female leaders since the beginning.

That’s precisely the point. You have different safeguarding as a mixed sex organisation.

Cassian, yes I have. I just feel that if adults take the right approach then everybody can be protected.

Of course, this relies on adults being able and willing to do that.

JessicaWakefield, I apologise for my bad choice of words.

Safeguarding comes first every time.

Sorry everyone. It was the map that got me.

Horrifying. IF, that is, its the plain truth. It might be. It might not be. I honestly dont know. I could not help noticing that in this case it is a solicitor using it as a marketing tool for their commercial services so I will reserve judgement.

I guess what I am trying to say is that effective safeguarding can (and must) be put in place, regardless of the sex of those attending, PROVIDED all the adults concerned are willing and able to work as a team to do so. It is the number 1 importance.

Yes it is. Treating men as women in girl guiding is not appropriate and contradicts proper safeguarding procedure. Certainly telling parents you’re a female only organisation and not telling them when men are there, is totally unacceptable.

That map is understating if anything.