Another perv in mixed sex changing village

[Gingerkittykat]

www.dunfermlinepress.com/news/17698951.naked-woman-caught-perv-spying-on-her-at-carnegie-leisure-centre/?ref=mr&lp=6

Probably outing since I use this leisure centre frequently, I know it's not the first incident in the 3 years or so since it changed from single sex facilities.

Comments on local FB page with women saying they now feel unsafe taking their kids there, but I'm sure all council facilities in our region are mixed sex, they have also done away with all womens only swim and health suite sessions.

@finnmcool

Amazing, I'm going to ask them about number of incidents in changing village since it changed to mixed sex. I also really want some single sex time in the health suite so going to ask for stats there regarding user numbers, it can feel like a boys club in there and I'm sure that fact alone puts of women from using it.

Gingerkittykat That's a great idea!

I am writing because I was disturbed to read in the Dunfermline press about 2 convictions of men convicted of voyeurism within Carnegie Leisure Centre, one in the changing village and another in the female toilets, presumably the toilets which are accessed via the mixed sex area.

I would like to ask how many incidents of men behaving inappropriately towards women or children have been recorded since the change from single sex facilities to a mixed sex changing village?

I am wondering what risk assessments have been made to ensure the safety of women, girls and children in this environment? The area is meant to be supervised yet I see the staff standing around chatting at the desk, and times when no staff seem to be present at all.

I am wondering why there are no single sex health suite sessions. What are the statistics regarding how many men and women use the facilities.

The health suite can feel like a men's social club, at my last visit I think I counted around 9 men to 2 women, who were me and my daughter.

I have faced incidents in the health suite. One is a young man with learning disabilities called XXXX. His group visit with carers frequently and he would touch me on the arm to get my attention and talk to me, behaviour which was not noticed by carers who sat at the side chatting. Although his motivation was not sexual it is still inappropriate as a women wearing a swimsuit should never be touched by a man without her permission. This led me to changing the times I visited to avoid this group.

Another time I had a man make an inappropriate flirty comment in the spa pool, a disturbing experience due to his close proximity.

I would like to request a women's only session, I have largely stopped using the health suite due to my discomfort being in very close proximity to men wearing very little.

I am wondering if the impact on women is considered, especially women who would not be able to be in this space with men due to cultural reasons.

What were the male and female usage patterns of the health suite in the days when there were single sex sessions?

I look forward to your response.

I wish now I had reported the incidents in the health suite where I have felt uncomfortable but they seemed too trivial to complain about. I mean who complains about a man making flirty comments or is nasty enough to complain about someone with learning disabilities?

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding Carnegie Leisure Centre and for your sharing your observations based upon swimming and health suite visits at Carnegie. On behalf Fife Sports and Leisure Trust, we are sorry to hear that your personal concerns arising at this facility has given cause for you to raise a complaint.

When it comes to design and build, the architect will follow approved guidance such as the attached web link document, courtesy of sportengland

www.sportengland.org/media/4187/swimming-pools-dgn-2013.pdf

Page 39 more clearly includes the advantages and disadvantages associated within changing areas.

As the facility operator, we take into account the user patterns and behaviours and seek to actively police our changing and heath suite areas with our own staff member checks.

Our risk assessments are applicable to all user groups, that said, we do have protocol’s in place for child protection and undertake regular training with our staff team. It is widely accepted across the UK and elsewhere that unisex sessions are being offered as part of swimming, gym or health suite and that there is little complaint caused by such an arrangement and is seen to be more inclusive to all.

In terms of the health suite itself, if you ever feel threatened or concerned you or anyone else is more than welcome to either discretely notify a member of staff or in more serious circumstances press the emergency buttons located within for an urgent mass staff response. Note: This normally only applies in a lifesaving situation.

We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for sharing your concerns with us and assure you that we listen to all comments thus creating an opportunity for us to strive for greater improvement in all that we do.

If you remain dissatisfied with the outcome of our investigation or this response you can request that a more senior manager reviews your complaint and our response to it by contacting [email protected].

At Fife Sports and Leisure Trust we are continually looking to improve the services we provide and treat all complaints seriously.

More inclusive to all, except women

Not heard back with the usage figures yet, will update when I do.

I think to make headway on this there will have to be some gathering of statistics on a widespread basis. It seems like a lot of places aren't really bothering.
I don't know what is available in terms of stats to compared the mixed areas with. But it's very difficult to make an argument without some numbers, it's easy for it to be fobbed off. There really should have been provision made to collect them when the changes were implemented.

Thank you for your information request received on 14th June 2019, reference FL289 (“the Request”) addressed to Fife Sports and Leisure Trust (“FSLT”).

We respond to your Request as follows:

I note that you are seeking the following:

Risk assessments regarding trans access to female changing facilities.

In accordance with subsection 17(1)(b) of FOISA, we confirm that we do not hold this information.

Risk assessments regarding changing villages instead of single sex provision

In accordance with subsection 17(1)(b) of FOISA, we confirm that we do not hold this information. FSLT manage the facilities on behalf of Fife Council, who own and are responsible, for any structural changes to them. Fife Council may be able to provide this information.

Details of our insurers, including policy number

In accordance with subsection 16(1)(a) of FOISA, we confirm that we hold this information. I have attached a copy of FSLT’s current Certificate of Insurance which covers both Employers and Public liability. The certificate is displayed in all of FSLT’s leisure facilities.

If you are not satisfied with the way we have handled your request, you have the right to request a review. A request for review must be made within 40 working days of receipt of our response to your Freedom of Information request.

Please write to: Head of Finance and Business Development, Fife Sports and Leisure Trust, Music Institute, East Port, Dunfermline, KY12 7JA to request a review. If our review fails to resolve the matter to your complete satisfaction, you have the right to apply to the Scottish Information Commissioner to appeal our decision.

Kind regards

            Gail

Gail Giraldas

Business Support Coordinator

Fife Sports and Leisure Trust

Music Institute

East Port

Dunfermline

Fife

KY12 7JA

Tel No 03451 555555 ext 443964

@Gingerkittykat So I got a response to my request for information.
What a shit show.

Good point Goosefoot.

Risk assessments regarding trans access to female changing facilities.

In accordance with subsection 17(1)(b) of FOISA, we confirm that we do not hold this information.

So, no risk assessments then. What a surprise.

Yes, exactly the same as GLL and all the clothes shops with teenage girls as their core customers.

@finnmcool So they are passing the buck, they run the leisure centres yet say Fife Council are responsible.

I've not had time to respond to them yet, but will over the next week or so.

The volume of news and complaints/responses on this will fly under the radar, sadly. I wonder if there's scope for a database or similar? A means of gathering all of this stuff in one place, possibly organised by geography - an interactive map or something. If I had the skills and know how I'd build one, but I don't.

Goose:
I don't know what is available in terms of stats to compared the mixed areas with. But it's very difficult to make an argument without some numbers, it's easy for it to be fobbed off.

Please do not be so disingenuous.

The stats are available. Women and girls' safety is jeopardised when men are given access to what have formerly been female single-sex spaces.

Female single-sex spaces exist for a purpose. They exist for lots of purposes and reasons.

Because men are not women.

Thanks Kitty for chasing up these things.

@Gingerkittykat

Forward the correspondence to the council CEO and cc the local government ombudsman. Particularly ask for information about the lack of risk assessment and problems with the public sector duty under the equality act - race, religion and sex are the three top ones.

I don't understand the sentence; if he filmed under a cubicle partition, how is that only voyeurism?
He manufactured pornography without consent. What is he doing with it? Does he send it to friends? Does he have online accounts and has he ever uploaded any of his films?

The great shame of all of this is that many women will stop using such facilities. If there is no alternative, we will eventually feel excluded from many facilities that we previously enjoyed. This just doesn't seem right to me.

There was a man at our local pool today that decided to get undressed in full view of everyone( mainly kids) waiting for the session to start.

The same man then had to be asked to leave the section of pool cordoned off for the inflatables session, which was clearly signed as adults could only go in if accompanying a child.

I've contacted a local feminist group to see if they are interested in campaigning for single sex facilities. It is certainly a subject I want to challenge.

Hey @Gingerkittykat I sent you a PM.

But Grimbles you must be mistaken. This Never Happens

Here’s another story. For something that never happens, it seems to happen a lot:

www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/17722762.surrey-police-launch-investigation-after-girls-filmed-in-rainbow-leisure-centre-changing-room/?ref=twtrec

Perverts are the problem not mixed changing.

Mixed changing is practical for families. And I am not comfortable sending my son into Male changing at 8 years old when there are so many predators around.

Perverts are the problem not mixed changing

Which is why there’s been a long tradition of single sex segregated facilities.

And I am not comfortable sending my son into Male changing at 8 years old when there are so many predators around.

So instead you want the predators to be where the women and girls are, instead?

The solution here is a mixture of sex-segregated and family changing cubicles.