Lily Allen “tried to avoid being a woman” because of the derogatory way her father spoke about them.

[stumbledin]

It can be hard enough in families if you have male relatives who are constantly negating and insulting women. And it must be worse in one of them (like Lily Allen's dad) earns his living by doing this on tv.

Can you imagine if Russell Brand was your father.

I dont know much about Lily Allen but she has my sympathies for the poison he must have put in her mind.

"when she was growing up, her relationship with her father, actor Keith Allen, was “fragmented” and that the language he used when talking about women negatively impacted her ability to form female friendships."

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/lily-allen-dad-keith-woman-daughters-interview-stylist-a8955071.html

I agree with your points @Curious but they are somewhat undermined by calling mn users harpies.

Roly I have no intention of apologising for pointing out that some posters 'devour' the objects of their oddly obsessive dislike!

I don't really think it is all that uncalled for, when you read what said harpies often say about Ms Allen - some truly do go in for the kill. It is really unpleasant.

Using a misogynistic slur on a feminist forum makes you just as bad. Not looking for an apology, just pointing out the disconnect in your values.

She has every right to speak about her experiences of growing up and how this has affected her. No doubt her dad will also dismiss her words as 'a woman being dramatic'. As many toxic parents automatically do. Let's not make that mistake.

I think it's as we get older and have therapy that we start to realise that our relationship patterns were set in many ways before we could stand up for ourselves.

I grew up in a family where the only hobby most women had was bitching and gossiping and criticising and the men were all basically passive 'just let them get on with it types' who never would have dreamed of trying to protect young children from the endless humiliation and criticism. And the physical violence that underpinned it. Yes, it's messed up my relationships and yes, I now see it as my duty to myself to sort my head out so i can begin to function normally.

The idea that money or privilege protects children from adverse experiences is as ridiculous as the idea that children who grow up in poverty will all grow up to be social deviants.

Her childhood had aspects of shitness, she had flawed role models, she is a flawed human being. Much like the rest of us.

Bollocks! Sometimes a mythological reference is just that! Being so uber-PC is a disease... one that is killing society, piece by piece!

That and I note you take umbrage at my mythological reference but not at the posters who are victim blaming, or whatever other unpleasant modern term you'd like to apply to their kneejerk nastiness!

Oh come on, most of us would sleep with her without being paid! I can't imagine it's a huge inconvenience to women who are used to having to sleep with really disgusting unpleasant and dangerous men for a living, not knowing whether they're going to come out of it alive or badly injured, or maybe with an unwanted pregnancy, to sleep with a young-ish beautiful woman instead. I'm pro Nordic model myself but i can't get worked up about this. Too much actual evil in the world.

AH! I just realised, Roly you were thinking of harpies as being half bird half woman! Those ld stop motion films always had them protrayed that way!

I suppose at least half of mythologis have them as that. But initially they were wind spirits, fleet thieves who stole food from out of the mouths of their victims or took evil people off too be tortured.

We are all "victims" of our upbringings. But as adults we are responsible for our own behaviour. It is not "victim blaming" to suggest that someone who has had a difficult relationship with their parents should not buy consent to other women's bodies.

The term "victim blaming" actually means blaming a person for the crime committed against them. NOT criticising a person for behaving badly after they have been treated poorly.

Your use of misogynistic slurs is harmful to women and girls whether you choose to accept it or not.

Don't know a lot about Lily Allen but good people made bad choices and people change when they work on themselves, I don't like to paint anyone as all black or white. Agree with RolyW - 'she is a flawed human being. Much like the rest of us.'
And Russel Brand does seem to be trying to make sense of the world with a modicum of compassion, even if he is utterly self-absorbed.

Your use of misogynistic slurs is harmful to women and girls whether you choose to accept it or not. I didn't use the term 'victim blaming' I referred to other having used it! I agree with you, it is a deeply inpleasant term, no matter how it is used.

And I didn't use a misigynistic slur! You may believe I did, but I didn't. Whether you choose to accept it or not I did not!

Which I supoose brings us to that ever present uber-PC ideology that offense is ALWAYS in the ear/eye of the beholder, regardless of the intent of the supposed offender or the misunderstanding of the offendee!

Using the word "harpies" to describes women you disagree with is misogynistic. It is a word that has been used over decades to belittle, undermine, humiliate and degrade women and girls and only women and girls. It is used in an attempt to stop women talking about their opinions and in particular to stop them from complaining about sexism. It is not just in the eye of the beholder.

I'd also urge you to look at the title of the thread -

Lily Allen “tried to avoid being a woman” because of the derogatory way her father spoke about them.

I wonder if calling them "harpies" was one of the things he said about women.

So @Curious, on one hand you are agreeing that Lily was damaged by a father who used misogynistic slurs as part of what you described as " a fractured, unpleasant, damaging set of experiences", but on the other you are arguing that anyone complaining about the use of such slurs is being overly

…..PC!

No Roly Harpies being only women hadn't crossed my mind. As I explained!

I urge you to read all I did type! That YOU think of harpies as women, that anyone does, is fine, it is one of the presentations. But it is also fine not to, as they were not all women in various mythologies! That slur was in your eye, not my typing fingers!

Does haranguing count as misogyny too? As I feel you are ignoring my explanation, my understanding of what I typed and insisting you know my mind better... much as many of the posters I was initially disgreeing with do to Lily Allen!

1. Asking someone to consider (and reconsider) the use of their language on a feminist board does not count as haranguing let alone misogyny. You have been replying to my posts with your own counter "arguments" and I have no idea whether you are a man or a women?

1. I find it VERY hard to believe that you have never encountered the word "harpy" as a misogynistic slur before. But even if I were inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt, your insistence that the problem was with me and not your language even after it was pointed out to you that this is a historically used example of sexist language speaks volumes. Ignorance can only be used as an excuse once.

I agree with you about ignorance... you could have a second think too!

I am not actually insisting though. I am just trying to explain what you misunderstood. It has coloured everything you have posted to/at me. I don't need the benefit of anyone's doubt, how pompous of you! It is hardly my fault that you only know the populist version of what a harpy is!

Oh.. and did you really just side stepping asking me if I am a man?

OP, I think this is really interesting. I grew up with a father who, while never saying horrible things about women, did kind of just dismiss them as a bit of a joke. He teased me endlessly about my weight and put a lot of emphasis on women's looks. Eg, would dismiss Cherie Blair not because of her politics etc, but because she "had a mouth like a letterbox". I think his attitude to women was very detrimental to my emotional development and I really hope I don't inadvertently pass this on to my DC (boys and girl).

Having an understanding of discriminatory language = populist?

Ok.

I have no interested in your sex . Just that your implication that me challenging you was misogynistic is wrong because a) you were clutching at straws and b) how am I to know your sex?

Our discussion clearly demonstrates the problem we have with the Keith Allen's of the world. The denial that language is an important vehicle for oppression allows people to excuse their behaviour and deflect from it by banging the "overly PC" drum.

Oh stop! That's getting silly now!

We obviously both think much the same but are getting hung up on a mythological creature.

As it offends you I apologise, sincerely. I had no intention of offending anyone when I typed it. I accept that you have a different understanding of the word, the mythological creature, and I apologise, unreservedly, for having used it in a manner that bothered you.

That I find such 'bothering' to be a sign of an overly PC world where individuals refuse to understand that they have no right not to be offended is a separate point and does not detract from my apology in any way.

Lilly Allen is an adult and needs to take responsibility for her own actions. The reason she's so well known is her father. Her amazing ability to put her foot in her mouth is all her own.

Of course adults must take some responsibility for their own behaviour. I’m not sure why Brits have such an issue with Lily Allen, I’ve always found it weird considering the absolutely awful Male celebs that are adored...

Childhood has an impact on our adult lives. To dismiss this woman, someone referred to her as a ‘silly woman’ earlier, when she’s talking about the misogyny she grew up with, is very odd to me. Our childhoods don’t cease to affect us when we hit 18. My own father was an abusive, sexist racist pig, but fortunately he was always at the pub so my mother influenced me far more. If I was telling my story of my father and how it affected my adult relationships, my decisions and my happiness, I would be very surprised if a feminist board dismissed me as a spoilt silly woman.

MN harpies Wow. If men are unpleasant, how do you describe them? Is there a good word for it, associated with their sex?

Thank you for your apology @Curious.

I will leave it with this - I am not personally "offended" by sexist language, this is not about pearl-clutching offense. But I do understand that the more we normalise the use of stereotypes in the language we use to describe women and girls, the more we normalise treating them differently to men at best, and the more we dehumanise them at worst. Lily Allen is only one women who has internalised the linguistic messages she received from the most important man in her life - all women if we look closely enough will be able to identify at least one way in which we have been affected by the language used to describe us or other women.

Juells You're late in on that. Could you read/re-read the xchange between myself and Roly for an explanation....?

You may still not agree with me but at least you would have done me the courtesy of having read what I meant!

And to answer you... I would have called a man acting in the same manner, swooping in on an individual and carrying them off for their punishment, a harpy too!

Consider me told, Roly

I shall change my lexicon and reassign harpy with immediate and lasting effect.

Though I think that is a pity, as sometimes monitoring langauage to a certain extent completely buggers your options for expressing what you feel. It homogenises, it denatures, it paralyses freedom of thought and speech. That and it can throw away hundreds, thousands of years of culture... today Ovid and Homer, tomorrow Shakespeare, Wordsworth