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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Vatican statement on gender ID

43 replies

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 17:14

I've only heard it on PM R4 so far but it sounded sensible.

Declared it an ideology.

Can't find original statement.

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MockerstheFeManist · 10/06/2019 17:18

82 year old virgin conflates gender with sex.

As they say in Italy: He no playa da game, he no make-a da rules.

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 17:20

www.reuters.com/article/us-vatican-gender-idUSKCN1TB20E

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NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 17:21

Quite the opposite mockers dear.

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nauticant · 10/06/2019 17:24

The reporting of what the document actually says is all over the place. I think we need to see the wording of the document itself.

Whichever way it goes though, it will serve as a stick to beat the gender critical side.

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 17:25

Yes unfortunately so.

The irony of one ideology recognising another.

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MockerstheFeManist · 10/06/2019 17:29

The usual pseudoscholarly Vaticanese, but it seems to be saying that gender is linked intrinsically and inexorably to biological sex.

Or that there is no such thing as gender.

Or something else.

It's difficult to tell.

(which is possibly the idea.)

JackyHolyoake · 10/06/2019 17:31

So, the Vatican is telling us something we already know?

We know that "transgenderism" is an ideology. It has zero basis in any science or any other factual discipline.

JellySlice · 10/06/2019 17:31

Takes one to know one.

DpWm · 10/06/2019 17:32

Bloody hell. I agree with Catholics.

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 17:33

Not what I've read yet.

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NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 17:34

(To mockers)

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Birdsfoottrefoil · 10/06/2019 17:34

Ironic that the transideologues are complaining about the Vatican not consulting biologists and scientists...

JellySlice · 10/06/2019 17:40

It says gender theories are “often founded on nothing more than a confused concept of freedom in the realm of feelings and wants, or momentary desires provoked by emotional impulses and the will of the individual, as opposed to anything based on the truths of existence”.

Seems reasonable to me.

JellySlice · 10/06/2019 17:42

DeBernardo added: People do not choose their gender, as the Vatican claims: they discover it through their lived experiences.

Yes, their lived experiences of having gender norms imposed upon them.

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 17:51

Trying to work out what is "pseudoscholarly" about that statement...

Nope.

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ZenNudist · 10/06/2019 17:55

There's a very good (not current) YouTube vid from Fr Mike Schmitz (Catholic priest) <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D4-9_rxXFu9I&ved=2ahUKEwjgmYLdrd_iAhU7VBUIHTsuBEsQwqsBMAB6BAgEEAU&usg=AOvVaw3SCk-YsTNKNodLMcEHmiF8" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">here that talks all about a Catholic attitude to Transgender. I agree with him and love his conclusions that we are called to "walk with them" for anyone suffering. Its a compassionate and level headed argument.

Back to Pope Francis: isnt it stupid that GC thinking alligns with Catholic thinking on this issue when the church holds some pretty regressive views on other matters? Im thinking of issues such as female priests, contraception and abortion. I'm Catholic but think they need to move into 21st century, particularly on the priest issue!

When it comes to trans ideology its so regressive saying "these are female characteristics, these are male, if you dont fit these categories then change your appearance" ....crazy.

Carowiththegoodhair · 10/06/2019 18:07

Mike Schmitz is excellent. But this statement is very helpful.

Amalfimamma · 10/06/2019 18:16

I'll have a look at the original document in Italian later but some MPs and Senators in Italy have come out to state that the basis of the document will be adapted to Italian schools as they will protect children in their "right not to be indoctrinated in vacuous ideologies"

Another senator has said
(gender ideology is)
"authentic social experiment borrowed from North American universities to indoctrinate children from an early age, eliminating all sexual identity and forcing them to choose from dozens of different genres"

LGBT associations in Italy have so far made no statements

DrG · 10/06/2019 18:25

Oh good. Am very excited to see the impact of the statement in Ireland where self-id was pushed through with little discussion and where very high proportions of the population are practicing Catholics.

stumbledin · 10/06/2019 18:47

By coincidence have just seen a comment about this on facebook, where the poster points out that the article makes no sense because for whatever reason (modesty? ignorance?) they do not use the word sex at all.

So having said gender is an idiology, they then say their analysis is based on biology and science and nobody can change gender (when presumably they meant nobody can change sex).

Maybe the actual document does, but the report doesn't. Smile

www.thetablet.co.uk/news/11771/gender-theory-an-ideology-that-contradicts-science-says-vatican-

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 10/06/2019 18:49

Original document

wetransfer.com/downloads/12e9deeb99912fb3f5f6cd1f799e00cc20190610145054/fc1f09

"The 20th century brought
new anthropological theories and with them the beginnings of gender
theory. These were based on a reading of sexual differentiation that was
strictly sociological, relying on a strong emphasis on the freedom of the
individual. In fact, around the middle of the last century, a whole series
of studies were published which accentuated time and again the role of
external conditioning, including its influence on determining personality.
When such studies were applied to human sexuality, they often did so
with a view to demonstrating that sexuality identity was more a social
construct than a given natural or biological fact.

  1. These schools of thought were united in denying the existence of
any original given element in the individual, which would precede and at the same time constitute our personal identity, forming the necessary basis of everything we do. "

"Furthermore it was suggested that one could uphold the theory of a radical separation
between gender and sex, with the former having priority over the latter.
Such a goal was seen as an important stage in the evolution of humanity, in
which “a society without sexual differences” could be envisaged."

'In this cultural context, it is clear that sex and gender are no longer syn-
onyms or interchangeable concepts, since they are used to describe two
different realities. Sex is seen as defining which of the two biological
categories (deriving from the original feminine-masculine dyad) one be-
longed to. Gender, on the other hand, would be the way in which the
differences between the sexes are lived in each culture. The problem here
does not lie in the distinction between the two terms, which can be inter-
preted correctly, but in the separation of sex from gender. This separation is
at the root of the distinctions proposed between various “sexual orienta-
tions” which are no longer defined by the sexual difference between male
and female, and can then assume other forms, determined solely by the
individual, who is seen as radically autonomous. Further, the concept of
gender is seen as dependent upon the subjective mindset of each person,
who can choose a gender not corresponding to his or her biological sex,
and therefore with the way others see that person (transgenderism).'

'Gender theory (especially in its most radical forms)
speaks of a gradual process of denaturalisation, that is a move away from
nature and towards an absolute option for the decision of the feelings of
the human subject. In this understanding of things, the view of both sex-
uality identity and the family become subject to the same ‘liquidity’ and
‘fluidity’ that characterize other aspects of post-modern culture, often
founded on nothing more than a confused concept of freedom in the
realm of feelings and wants, or momentary desires provoked by emo-
tional impulses and the will of the individual, as opposed to anything
based on the truths of existence.
20. The underlying presuppositions of these theories can be traced back
to a dualistic anthropology, separating body (reduced to the status of in-
ert matter) from human will, which itself becomes an absolute that can
manipulate the body as it pleases. This combination of physicalism and
voluntarism gives rise to relativism, in which everything that exists is of
equal value and at the same time undifferentiated, without any real order
or purpose. In all such theories, from the most moderate to the most rad-
ical, there is agreement that one’s gender ends up being viewed as more
important than being of male or female sex. The effect of this move is
chiefly to create a cultural and ideological revolution driven by relativism,
and secondarily a juridical revolution, since such beliefs claim specific
rights for the individual and across society.'

'This ideology inspires educational programmes and legislative trends
that promote ideas of personal identity and affective intimacy that make
a radical break with the actual biological difference between male and female.
Human identity is consigned to the individual’s choice, which can also
change in time'

'In the light of this reality, we can understand
why the data of biological and medical science shows that ‘sexual dimor-
phism’ (that is, the sexual difference between men and women) can be
demonstrated scientifically by such fields as genetics, endocrinology and
neurology. From the point of view of genetics, male cells (which contain
XY chromosomes) differ, from the very moment of conception, from
female cells (with their XX chromosomes). That said, in cases where a
person’s sex is not clearly defined, it is medical professionals who can
make a therapeutic intervention. In such situations, parents cannot make
an arbitrary choice on the issue, let alone society. Instead, medical science
should act with purely therapeutic ends, and intervene in the least in-
vasive fashion, on the basis of objective parameters and with a view to
establishing the person’s constitutive identity.
25. The process of identifying sexual identity is made more difficult by the
fictitious constract known as “gender neuter” or “third gender”, which
has the effect of obscuring the fact that a person’s sex is a structural
determinant of male or female identity. '

'Efforts to go beyond the constitutive male-female sexual difference, such as the ideas of “intersex”
or “transgender”, lead to a masculinity or feminity that is ambiguous,
even though (in a self-contradictory way), these concepts themselves ac-
tually presuppose the very sexual difference that they propose to negate
or supersede. This oscillation between male and female becomes, at the
end of the day, only a ‘provocative’ display against so-called ‘traditional
frameworks’, and one which, in fact, ignores the suffering of those who
have to live situations of sexual indeterminacy. '

DpWm · 10/06/2019 18:53

It's a very topsy turvy world we live in, when an establishment based entirely on belief in a sky-god called "Our father" or "God" (always male), Virgin births, that someone can come back alive after being crucified to death, miracles, angels, etc... doesn't believe in gender ideology.

You'd have thought they'd lap it up.

ludog · 10/06/2019 19:03

I'd say that most Catholics in Ireland are more cultural Catholics rather than fully practising tbh.

Goosefoot · 10/06/2019 19:29

I'm glad they have put this out, most of it is completely logical from a Catholic standpoint but North American congregations have been struggling in many cases as the laity don't really understand the principles they are working from. It's likely to be useful outside of Catholic circles as well.

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