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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Vatican statement on gender ID

43 replies

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 17:14

I've only heard it on PM R4 so far but it sounded sensible.

Declared it an ideology.

Can't find original statement.

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Mamello · 10/06/2019 19:32

DpWm

No we wouldn't lap it up because we're not stupid and can see clearly the difference between a belief system that has it's own internal logic and whose main tenets are to love yourself as you are and to love other people as ourselves. This contrasts sharply with the trans ideology as I understand it.

DpWm · 10/06/2019 20:00

it's own internal logic
What, that humans can die then come back to life? That virgins can give birth? That if we don't do certain things or do do certain things during our lives we will be condemned to eternal hell in an afterlife? That logic...?

SomeDyke · 10/06/2019 20:20

This separation is at the root of the distinctions proposed between various “sexual orientations” which are no longer defined by the sexual difference between male and female, and can then assume other forms, determined solely by the individual, who is seen as radically autonomous. Further, the concept of gender is seen as dependent upon the subjective mindset of each person, who can choose a gender not corresponding to his or her biological sex, and therefore with the way others see that person(transgenderism).'"

I actually don't have a problem with this as a position I can argue about. So, as regards sexual orientation, this seems to be based on male and female natural and male with female for procreation cos that is what sex is FOR. Whereas, from a scientific point of view, sexual and capacity for sexual pleasure (think bonobos here), has primary purpose, if you like, of sexual reproduction, plus secondary purposes (like being used by bonobos to help alleviate group tension). Other forms of sexual orientation though, whatever your personal definition of your own sexuality, has to involve others and hence from a practical point of view, involves biology in terms of who does what and to whom and with what. Which is possible female to female or male to male, as bonobos know as well, so as 'natural' as anything else. Whether you think this is a good thing or not is up for debate, and what you think your particular god might do if you do it is also up for debate, if you insist.
But gender in this analysis, and this I would agree with, is subjective, and then the problem comes if you try to insist upon an alignment of your subjective opinion about yourself or your own identity, with what others say/think about you. You can't (and shouldn't, I think) try to control the thoughts of others about you. So, as regards lesbianism, I would not require anyone to pretend that a lesbian marriage is just like a heterosexual marriage, because in terms of things like procreation it isn't, and would be bloody stupid to pretend it is, lesbian couples require difference services to have kids than straight couples. But we are already used to many religions viewing marriages as less valid than others just look at divorce etc, or civil marriage as compared to a religious ceremony. I don't want anyone to ignore biology here. I may disagree with certain religious or ethical viewpoints, but as long as I am allowed to argue about them and not compelled to believe in them, then that is fine.
But with TRAs, as we all know, biology is out the window, subjective rather than the objective, and dissent not allowed. That is why I can partially agree with this statement by the (modern) Vatican, not because I necessarily agree with the conclusions or the basis of their beliefs, but because there is a large degree of commonality as to what matters and what is unacceptable. You can only argue with someone after all if there is a common ground of some sort, the problem being that is not allowed with TRAs, because the initial disagreement is wrongthink, and the grounds for how we determine what is true/a good argument, well, we aren't even allowed to debate!

In a nutshell, the catholic church at least has dealt with the right of other religious belief systems to exist even if they think they are (mostly) wrong -- TRAs haven't! Which is why in religious terms the catholics are more progressive than TRAs. Funny ole world...........

Mamello · 10/06/2019 20:25

Yes DpWm its own internal logic. But I don't want to derail this thread so won't get into a theological discussion here. But be assured at least my own internal logic won't force you to have to use my own preferred pronouns Smile

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 20:36

Need to read thread but I've already spotted some reports confusing sex and gender even though the report gets it right 🙄

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NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 20:41

Yes somedyke

long as I am allowed to argue about them and not compelled to believe in them, then that is fine.

There lies the lesson.

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Goosefoot · 10/06/2019 20:43

Media reports on religious topics are notoriously unreliable. Long ago many newspapers had specialist reporters who had enough knowledge base to cover them fairly well, but that is rare now. Reports like this one are't easy to read for a lot of people.

Goosefoot · 10/06/2019 20:45

Really, the Catholics are nothing if not scrupulously logical.

SomeDyke · 10/06/2019 20:52

There lies the lesson
Yeah, I just had to plod through to get my head round why I was suddenly thinking the catholic church was being reasonable! Which I think basically boils down to they keep a clear line between what is factually true, and what they believe. TRAs don't, in fact they require that someones personal totally subjective belief about themselves trumps anything objective anyone else has to say. It's a hell of a leap, makes transubstantiation look easy!

Total atheist BTW, which is why being in this position is slightly weird!

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 20:55

I struggle with parts of the actual statement posted up thread (thanks to the pp who did that) ; I wonder if a couple of parts have been lost in translation.

The parts quoted by Reuters though seem very clear and logical.

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NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 21:02

I'm a complete atheist too; there is definitely an interesting correlation in terms of an ideology that tells you you're a bigot (and therefore going to social right wing hell) constantly on twitter, in the media, etc for having a view whereas for the most part the other ideology that has its entire basis in the fiction of heaven and hell is respectful of views (doesn't cry bigot you're going to hell) and recognises the truth of biological reality.

I know some extreme religious cults will happily tell you you're going to hell but they're generally ignored by the general population or Louis Theroux makes a documentary about you. Oh wait...

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MarDhea · 10/06/2019 21:12

Am very excited to see the impact of the statement in Ireland where self-id was pushed through with little discussion and where very high proportions of the population are practicing Catholics.

Most people in Ireland are really not practising catholics. Cultural catholics, sure - that's the box they'll tick in a form, and they'll probably get married and buried with a mass.

But paying the slightest attention to what the pope thinks about anything? Nah. People here really don't take any notice of what the Vatican pronounces on contraception, ivf, homosexuality, abortion, etc. so the Vatican's view on trans issues is going to be just another thing to ignore.

My prediction is that the IT and Indo will dutifully report it, but it won't make it into most Irish people's radars at all.

Goosefoot · 11/06/2019 00:41

I wonder if a couple of parts have been lost in translation.

That's possible, though I think they typically use their own translators. They do use a lot of language in a way that's not very accessible to the general public though as its directed to people who are already familiar with it, its like reading outside of your academic discipline.

Apollo440 · 11/06/2019 01:03

Well it will help governors of Catholic schools send the gender ideologues packing. Not that they'd have allowed them in anyway.

nettie434 · 11/06/2019 08:26

I have learned that the Vatican doesn’t go in for flash websites! Grin.

It seems to be aimed at people in education and is not really written in the way I imagined from the news coverage.

I found this translation from a news agency in Vatican City. Seems a bit longer than the extracts I read here but so offering this to those who wondered about translation:

zenit.org/articles/new-vatican-document-provides-schools-with-guidance-on-gender-issues/

Birdsfoottrefoil · 11/06/2019 08:33

Presumably this will strengthen the right of Catholics not to be discriminated against on the basis of religion if they say Men who identify as women are not women? Including single sex spaces?

polarisation · 11/06/2019 13:22

The full text of the Vatican document is here (pdf, 32pp). I haven't read it yet!

There's also a longer summary on the official Vatican News page here.

Jux · 11/06/2019 17:23

I haven't read the Vatican doc yet, but I saw the Archbishop on the BBC News. It was very short piece, but he said very sensible things - except he always said 'gender'. I have emailed him to suggest that he stop conflating sex and gender.

The BBC piece is here, at 16.25, lasts about one minute! www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcnews?rewindTo=current

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