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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Rumplestiltskin Law

470 replies

Barracker · 07/06/2019 14:59

There is a consultation happening regarding surrogacy.

Here is a link to the Law Commission on the subject.

It's key aim is horrifying.
To sever all rights of a woman over the child she has created with her body, the moment she gives birth to it. Presumably, to sever her rights before she gives birth, in fact. To contractually grant someone else ownership of her body and the child within it.

"Creating a new surrogacy pathway that will allow, in many cases, the intended parents to be the legal parents of the child from the moment of birth."

I'm calling it what it is. The Rumplestiltskin Clause.

I'm taking your child, and there's nothing you can do about it. A deal is a deal. Your body is mine. Your human rights were forfeit when you signed the contract.

It's the stuff of nightmarish fairytales.
Rumplestiltskin was not the good guy.

#TheRumplestiltskinLaw

The Rumplestiltskin Law
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pinchpoint · 18/06/2019 14:01

I am absolutely horrified by this (the horrors just keep coming...when you think they've hit rock-bottom in terms of sheer misogyny, they go one louder). ShockShockShock

JFC! They can't go any lower, can they? We are literally a bovine herd to be exploited and harvested for the bits of our bodies they find useful. Is there nobody in their lives or jobs in a position to cause them to self-reflect? Their egos and chauvinism are absolutely toxic and harmful to us. To poor women, to women of colour, to women we could have been if less fortunate in our life circumstances.

This battle will be never-ending, won't it.

That's it. Men will never 'understand' to the extent of refraining from trying to do this shit to women. Angry

It feels so inadequate in light of the seriousness of what they are proposing, but whats do I have except words?

I want to draft a letter of complaint to the Law Commission before responding to their consultation. Perhaps a petition would be better? Or at least circulating it so there are more names...

I am concerned that, just as Edward Lord trashed 19,000 gender critical insultation responses, the LC may just dismiss our complaints. Hopefully not. I have to continue to believe there are reasonable (i.e. not actively misogynist) men working at the highest levels of the legislature, despite indications to the contrary.

Between the trans activists' attack on sex-based rights, and the male establishment's attack on birth rights, and the male-dominated media and charities' grooming of kids, I don't know where to begin. The octopus has so many limbs. It's extremely dispiriting. It's extremely upsetting.

I will see whether the woman who runs BirthRights is onto this yet.

Sad
Ineedacupofteadesperately · 18/06/2019 14:28

I find it really interesting that there is so much discussion around situations where the baby is not genetically related to the surrogate.

If surrogacy is ABSOLUTELY FINE and a woman can do what she wants with her body, and payment isn't a problem, and it's a gift (etc etc) then WHY are people going to great lengths trying to sever the genetic link between the surrogate mother and the baby? If it's all FINE.

Just to be clear I think surrogacy is trade in women's bodies and trade in human beings (babies that can't object) and should be completely banned.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 18/06/2019 14:32

Oh and great post pinch I completely agree and feel the same - I am upset too.

I do think a petition would be good and we can copy our responses to our MPs too so they can't (hopefully) just chuck the responses they don't like away. The consultation is horrendously biased as it is.

pinchpoint · 18/06/2019 14:38

Thanks Ineed. I feel like I'm often plopping and grandstanding with these lengthy posts, because I'm always in a rush and can't often check back in, but still dearly need the space to vent about how utterly terrifying and unnerving it is to watch all this unfold.

Do they (elite men and their brainwashed handmaidens) ever pause to wonder that we experience these bythe announcements as assaults, as a subtle form of terrorism?

Petition petitions...Good idea re CC-ing to MPs. Mine was instantly persuaded of my take on the GRA reforms when I displayed Jacinta on my phone.

I'll add this to my list. Are we not allowed to post petition links here?

IcedPurple · 18/06/2019 15:46

I find it interesting how those who consider themselves oh so 'woke' and 'feminist' - particularly in America - are all for surrogacy, despite the fact that it's essentially trading in women and babies.

Take the actress Jessica Chastain, known for her feminist views, who last year had a daughter 'via' surrogacy. It made me think less of her.

TeaEnjoyingRadiantFeminist · 18/06/2019 15:53

For those of you who consider yourselves feminists, what makes you think it would be right to take that away from her? Her body. Her choice. Her achievement.

I know the thread has moved on, but this really jumped out at me. 'Consider yourselves feminists'? Really? Feminists seek to create a world where women as a class are no longer oppressed. That is not, and should never be, the same as wanting every woman to be allowed do whatever the hell she wants even if that promotes a society that is dangerous or oppressive for other, less privileged, women.

As offensive as I'm sure many will find this view, surrogacy has many, many parallels to prostitution. Some people might do it for purely altruistic reasons/just because they want to (and with respect to altruistic surrogates, I do think that amount of personal sacrifice is commendable) however I don't think that outweighs the overriding policy issues that posters have already raised on this thread, anymore than a happy, high paid escort should be used to excuse wider scale prostitution and all of the problems that come with it.

'Choice' in that respect is just a cover for the thin end of the wedge, and as absolutely awful and heartbreaking as it is for them, I would rather some individuals have to face the difficulties of infertility than for less privileged women to be reduced to commercial breeders through a system that warps over time.

I actually think that from a policy perspective, growing additional organs for other people would be less of a problem; at least then it wouldn't be sex based slavery and there wouldn't be a child that could potentially be very damaged by the exchange.

Human bodies and any part thereof should never be for trade or sale.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 18/06/2019 15:56

pinch completely understand about the feeling of plopping - I feel that way too sometimes, but the women on here get that a lot of us are doing a lot of work of all kinds. It's so important we still speak up in support of the more prolific posters on here and don't let the fact that we're busy to stifle our voice.

When it comes to surrogacy, normal ordinary women and mothers should have a very big voice, after all it'll be our bodies they want to rent, but it seems there are attempts to minimise our voices. The bias in the consultation is appalling.

IcedPurple · 18/06/2019 16:05

As offensive as I'm sure many will find this view, surrogacy has many, many parallels to prostitution.

Yes and many of the arguments made in favour of it are identical: "Who are you to tell a woman what she can do with her body?", "It's a choice these women make", "It's going to happen anyway so why not regulate it?" and so on.

And you often have the same people making these arguments - men who have no use whatsoever for feminism but are happy to exploit it in weak attempts to justify commodifying women's bodies. With surrogacy, you have the added emotional blackmail "How dare you tell me my gorgeous little Tommy should not have been born!" to contend with.

twicemummy1 · 18/06/2019 16:14

@pinchpoint It's just horrifying isn't it. And our energy is being wasted fighting the trans bullshit.
Even before I realized surrogacy could be commercial I never understood why it was ever okay to ask a woman to have a baby for you. Women can die in childbirth. Since when was a person's need for a baby more important than another woman's life? That's why the altruistic model doesn't make sense to me. The people asking you to have their baby honestly and truly do not care about you r well being, or your life, so just don't do it. As for paid surrogacy, it's despicable

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 18/06/2019 16:21

Commercial surrogacy, like prostitution isn't a choice general made by wealthy women.

Women with lots of genuine choices don't make the decision to risk their lives for money.

Poor women won't be able to 'benefit' from commercial surrogacy because they could never afford the costs associated - legal fee, insurance, loss of income for the mother...

It really is rich people using poor women.

tiktok · 18/06/2019 16:43

This is a great thread and I’m sorry not to have been able to read it all at the moment. Surrogacy is wrong - in principle. To create a human being, using a woman’s body, for the sole and single purpose of removing the baby from its mother, is wrong. I can’t think of any reason why that would ever be a good thing. I speak as someone who is related to a man whose wife had fertility problems (they are not in the UK). They are very rich. They paid two American women to have babies - two, at more or less the same time, in case one went wrong. The result is two siblings five months apart in age. Of course these children are loved and happy. But they should not have been conceived at all, IMO.

Haworthia · 18/06/2019 17:20

Gosh, two siblings five months apart in age? That does rather highlight the... unnatural-ness of it all, doesn’t it? And imagine the children having to explain it for the rest of their lives: “No, we’re not twins, we’re five months apart. Yes, five. Our parents commissioned two surrogates. An heir and an actual spare... LOL”.

Also reminds me of minor celeb Caprice, who hired a surrogate and then fell pregnant herself. Two babies around two months apart IIRC. I think she said she was going to raise them as twins, including picking a random “birthday” for them and not letting the children know which one was surrogate-born. I mean, that’s just fucked up. Not letting your children know the basics of how they came to be, just because your surrogacy plans got messed up by a natural pregnancy.

Anon992 · 18/06/2019 21:39

This is clearly a highly emotive subject and there are strong views on all sides. It seems to me that several points are being conflated and that it would be helpful to consider each separately.

Firstly, the rights of the surrogate. Can a woman consent to carrying and birthing another couple’s/person’s child, given the risks that this brings? Pregnancy always brings some risks for the mother - risks of complications, pain, even death. We accept that a woman can accept these risks in her own pregnancy. Can a woman enter into this for others? For me the answer is yes - but only if appropriate safeguards are in place. This includes medical screening (both physical and mental health), mandatory legal advice and counselling independent of the intended parents (these are all proposed in the Law Commission paper). If fully informed of all possible outcomes and risks, and sufficiently healthy to undertake a pregnancy, I believe it is the right of the surrogate to make an informed decision as to what she wishes to do with her own body. A further question about surrogate rights is can a woman consent to the legal parentage of a child she births being vested in the intended parents from the moment of birth? Again, for me the answer is yes, providing the safeguards outlined above are followed, and providing there is a further safeguard in the case of a change of heart (which is also in the Law Commission paper, and which I understand to be extremely rare in altruistic surrogacy cases despite hearsay to the contrary).

Secondly, the impact on the child. This is worth splitting into two - the immediate post birth trauma and the longer term outcomes. Firstly, in relation to birth, this is always somewhat traumatic to the child - leaving the warmth and consistency of the womb and entering the world and all its many variations. If the baby is welcomed into the arms of its intended parents, who then go on to love feed and care for their much-wanted baby, this is surely what we mean by giving the baby the best start in life. Granted, the baby recognises the surrogate’s voice. But within a few days it will grow to bond with its IPs (if not before - I am 7 months pregnant as a gestational surrogate and this baby hears its IP’s voices every day). Many conventional births unfortunately do not lead to immediate love and bonding from their biological parents - yet we do not advocate screening parents before allowing people to procreate. Is this really a compelling argument against bringing a much loved and wanted child into the world? I don’t personally believe so. In relation to longer term surrogate child outcomes, this is difficult to assess due to small numbers and sample sizes, and the differing demographics of IPs from the general population. However if the IPs are open with the child about its origins from birth - as my IPs will be with this child and as is common in altruistic surrogacy - what disadvantage would the child born through surrogacy have? He or she knows from their earliest days how much they were loved and wanted and that their surrogate was a part of their amazing journey into the world.

Thirdly, the rights of the IPs. The many evocative examples given on this thread about IP rights to make decisions during a pregnancy are grounded in commercial surrogacy as seen in the US. In the UK the IPs have no rights to decide what the surrogate does in respect to such matters as diet/exercise, screening, termination etc. This is entirely the surrogate’s arena and is why it is so important that there is a good mutual understanding, trust and alignment of views before undertaking any surrogacy journey. This should be covered through counselling and in the surrogacy agreement as suggested by the Law Commission. As with any pregnancy, but more so with surrogacy, there will be a large number of interested parties (including other relatives and friends) who may have strong and conflicting views on important matters. Even in a conventional pregnancy you may see different views between the mother and father in some areas. At least in a surrogacy arrangement these are likely to have been discussed and considered up front - unlike a conventional pregnancy. I’m not saying any of this is easy - but neither do I believe it to be insurmountable with the right support and thought upfront and throughout.

Finally and most contentiously, the issue of commercialisation and payment. All my comments above are framed in the context of altruistic surrogacy as it currently exists in the UK. A move to commercial surrogacy would be a sea change and introduce a host of other different and difficult arguments. However to my mind it is worth clearly separating this from the points above and debating the merits and issues of commercial surrogacy separately.

I recognise there will never be full consensus on all points but I personally find the strong emotive language being used by some on this thread blurs some of the issues above.

drspouse · 18/06/2019 21:45

Your post is all about the pregnant mother, the IPs, and a baby.
Babies don't stay babies.

FannyCann · 18/06/2019 22:02

They paid two American women to have babies - two, at more or less the same time, in case one went wrong.

An heir and an actual spare... LOL”.

I'm just going to say that there is another thread about the world being overpopulated.

JoanOfQuarks · 18/06/2019 22:17

Anon992 Are you aware that the new surrogacy law proposes a move to a US style full commercial surrogacy?

Have you looked at the consultation? It’s all about the intended purchasers rights to control the mother. There’s almost nothing about the surrogate mother and there’s next to nothing about the needs of the baby or about safeguarding the baby. It’s all about making the UK a profitable place for the reproductive industry.

Anon992 · 18/06/2019 22:20

Yes I have read the Law Commission consultation paper in full. The paper does not propose a move to commercial surrogacy, but it does seek to open a dialogue on what it recognises to be a controversial and divisive issue, that of payment.

Having read the paper in full, and being both a lawyer and a surrogate, I’m afraid I have to disagree with your assessment.

twicemummy1 · 18/06/2019 23:10

@Anon992
I don't get the language you're using at all. "The surrogate has the right to be informed". Whoopedoo, she gets to make a decision after she's informed of the implications.
What you have to ask is, what kind of position is a woman in, if she thinks that having a baby for some people who don't give two hoots if she dies or not, is a reasonable request. Even the healthiest of women can die of complications . Pregnancy is never risk free.
We all take a risk with our life when she decide to have a child but women feel that the prize at the end is worth the risk.
In what kind of world is it okay to take away the prize from her?

twicemummy1 · 18/06/2019 23:14

@Anon992
I guess what I'm saying is, how desperate must a woman be, or how little does she value her own life and health, for her to think that carrying a baby she can't even keep is a reasonable request for someone to make of her?

Valanice1989 · 18/06/2019 23:23

I understand that it must be very, very difficult for the genetic mother to know that the surrogate has the right to be legally recognised as the mother of the baby. But I think the law needs to stay as it is. We would be crossing into dangerous territory otherwise.

twicemummy1 · 18/06/2019 23:26

@Valanice1989
the genetic mother needs to have a long hard think about whether or not her desire for a child is worth risking another woman's life

twicemummy1 · 18/06/2019 23:28

Death is the worst outcome. But there are hundreds of other complications in childbirth. There was a woman on mumsnet who ended up with a colostomy bag after giving birth. I'm so angry that people are so cavalier about women's health

LassOfFyvie · 18/06/2019 23:37

Do they (elite men and their brainwashed handmaidens) ever pause to wonder that we experience these bythe announcements as assaults, as a subtle form of terrorism?

I really dislike the term "handmaiden". As I understand it, it is supposed to refer to women who go along with what men are doing. It is wholly inappropriate here. Women are every bit as bad as men and surrogacy is driven as much by men as women.

twicemummy1 · 18/06/2019 23:45

I think the word handmaiden is fine- I've argued why on the hand maiden thread.
But in the case of surrogacy I do really wonder what on earth the women are thinking.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 18/06/2019 23:48

Can a woman consent to carrying and birthing another couple’s/person’s child, given the risks that this brings?

You could also ask, can a person consent to selling one of their organs, given the risks that this brings. If selling of organs is illegal, then surrogacy should be.

Surrogacy is actually worse than selling organs because you're selling a baby.

I personally find the strong emotive language being used by some on this thread blurs some of the issues above

Could you be more patronising? Well, most of us are mothers so we know what it's like to grow, birth and feel that immediate rush of love for the baby you've carried - the bond you have that is forged over 9 months and that is different to the bond the baby has to everyone else at birth. If we can't get emotional and use "emotive language" about selling babies then the world really is doomed.

The only reason people who are pushing surrogacy WANT surrogacy is for emotional reasons (either greed or the selfish desire to own a child regardless of any impact on that child). Emotional reasons are used in the arguments for it 'what about the infertile' (rich people, because infertile poor people certainly won't have this choice). Having a child is not a right.

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