Murdered a woman- but didn't pose a risk to women?!

[Bluestitch]

Wtf. A transwoman with an interest in sadistic torture, jailed for 26 years for brutally killing a woman was allowed into a women's prison because apparent lack of sexual offences meant that there was 'little risk' to female inmates. Without a GRC there was absolutely no responsibility to do this but they chose to anyway, putting the wants of a murderer ahead of women's safety.

Now moved back to a men's prison.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7097351/Trans-murderer-23-moved-male-jail-romping-naked-female-inmate.html

Dr Nic has had a letter published in Inside Time (magazine for prisoners) asking concerned women to contact her.

Here is someone complaining about it on Reddit: www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/bv90ku/inside_time_rather_unpleasant_article_by_fpfw/

Some prisoners are actually female. Get over it.

Blimey. That complaint on reddit about the issue is pure self centred delusion. Certain people do like to play fast and loose with their embrace of feminine stereotypes when it comes to gentle empathy with their 'sisters', don't they?

Like, they enjoy the fluttery vulnerability, but the difficulties of women don't even register as a concern. Ugh.

Bluestitch - a few years ago I went to a Mumsnet bloggers event where Ronson was talking about his new book. I'd always liked him and thought (still do) that he's a brilliant writer. But it was just after that viral video came out - you may remember it - in which a woman walked down the street wearing a secret camera and recorded the men catcalling her. Ronson brought it up and said he thought it was a really terrible thing to do - to wear a secret camera and then publish the footage. I remember thinking it odd that he thought that was a bigger problem than the men catcalling.

The use of female pronouns for males is very confusing and obscures the issues/reality the confusion and suspension of disbelief is deliberate and is exactly why this issue is being forced so heavily across the media and throughout our institutions. If they can force us to call a man 'she', rejecting biological reality, then they can literally make us accept anything as truth.

RoyalCorgi

Well, of course, how dare that woman record her own life experiences as a woman without warning the men first to be on their best behaviour as if others are watching (as they are). Because as women we should expect to have to tell men that they are being recorded so they won’t harass or abuse us, those poor poor men.

Here’s a screenshot and a copy and paste of Dr Nic’s Inside Time article:

Over recent years the number of male prison- ers identifying as transgender women has increased and some are now living in women’s prisons. What the majority of people don’t know is that most of these male prisoners have not gone through any ‘sex change surgery’ and still have their penis. Some of them are in prison because they have committed sexual or violent crimes against women but they are still allowed to serve their time alongside women. Mistakes have already been made and last year two women prisoners were sexually assaulted by a male transgender prisoner. That prisoner, who had been convicted of rape, has now been moved into the male estate.
We at ‘Fair Play for Women’ think women in prison deserve better than this. For the past 18 months we have been campaigning to keep women’s jails as places for female prisoners only. We have been working hard to raise the alarm about the dangers of putting male pris- oners into female jails. Our campaign is often in the newspapers. I’ve been on TV and radio many times speaking up about the risks to women in prison. I’ve spoken to MPs and gov- ernment ministers about our concerns. We’ve been out on the streets talking to the public and most people agree with us that male pris- oners should not be in women’s prisons, no matter how they identify. We made front page news with a government petition signed by over 10,000 people. The public agreed that the policy should be looked at again, this time with women’s organisations like ours helping to create the policy so it works for women in prison too. Some women have been so angry about this issue they recently protested outside
Downview prison in support of your right to a female-only prison.
Our hard work has been paying off. Last month we were invited to attend a meeting with prison policymakers to hear more about how they want to improve the rules to make it fairer and safer for everyone.
We think it is unfair to force women in custody to live alongside males. Female prisoners need privacy and safety away from males. Surely that’s common sense?
Fair Play for Women wants transgender prison policy to work for everyone. All prisoners, in- cluding transgender prisoners, have a right to feel safe, secure and respected. Male prisoners who are transgender need their own specialist support. The government has tried to support them by putting them in women’s prisons. The problem is that the government didn’t ask women how they feel about this. We know that women in prison are exceptionally vulnerable. Many of you have been the victims of male violence or sexual abuse. We think it is unfair to force women in custody to live alongside males. Female prisoners need privacy and safety away from males. Surely that’s common sense?
Have your say
If you also think this is common sense, I need to hear from you so that we can push prison bosses and the government to keep you safe. To do this, I need to know what women in prison think. So I am asking women prisoners and staff working in the female estate to write to me with your opinions and experiences. Tell me your concerns. I will use your stories to show the government how its decisions are affecting women in prison ... but don’t worry - I will keep your name secret. I look forward to hearing from you.
Dr Nicola Williams is spokesperson for Fair Play for Women and campaigner for women’s rights.

But, but, but... This Never Happens. Remember their names. Karen White, Kayleigh Woods

Oh, and Martin Ponting/Jessica Winfield, who also had to moved out of a female prison after sexually assaulting female prisoners: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4856268/Transgender-rapist-moved-women-jail-segregated.html

FPFW and Nicola Williams are awesome. No drama, no theatrics, just quiet effectiveness

And the response to that calm, information request from Nicola?

That FPFW are wrong for caring about women being assaulted and abused and humiliated, and anyone who does is transphobic.

These people hate women . This is an actively anti woman agenda based on profound sexism. Is anyone not yet clear on this fact? Maria? Dear Pen? Theresa? Noticed yet what you're waving through?

Ronson brought it up and said he thought it was a really terrible thing to do - to wear a secret camera and then publish the footage. I remember thinking it odd that he thought that was a bigger problem than the men catcalling.

Yes, I can imagine.

Nothing worse than a woman who has the audacity to expose abusive men is there Jon?

Incidentally, this is the chart that they use for assessment. They don't appear to have considered that some men may fit into several boxes - that they may well have a driving licence issued in a woman's name but that they could also have narcissistic traits.

And nowhere in this chart or in the guidance as a whole is any reference made to safeguarding women. None. There is no reference to the fact that men are overwhelmingly responsible for violence and sexual assault and that there could be risks associated for women prisoners if they are sharing spaces with men who identify as women.

And this bit of the guidance really pisses me off:

"Transgender people, particularly those who have not undergone surgery or extended hormone therapy, may use various items to assist with their presentation in the gender they identify with. These can range from sophisticated prostheses to padded bras. Regardless of their level of sophistication, access to them can only be restricted in exceptional circumstances. IEP is not a justifiable reason for restricting access.
A8 These items may only be prohibited when it can be demonstrated that they present a security risk which cannot be reasonably mitigated. The test that is applied to these items is the same as that applied to other items in the prison in which the prisoner is held. If a prison decides to apply such restrictions, they must be able to provide a detailed and reasonable justification for doing so.
A9 Transgender prisoners may use make up to present more convincingly in the gender they identify with. Make up that is vital to presenting in the gender identified with, such as foundation to cover facial hair, may not be restricted."

Make up is vital. Chicken fillets are vital. FUCK OFF

And nowhere in this chart or in the guidance as a whole is any reference made to safeguarding women. None. There is no reference to the fact that men are overwhelmingly responsible for violence and sexual assault

They are perfectly aware, which is why they don't generally put female FTM prisoners in the male estate.

The use of female pronouns for males is very confusing and obscures the issues/reality the confusion and suspension of disbelief is deliberate and is exactly why this issue is being forced so heavily across the media and throughout our institutions. If they can force us to call a man 'she', rejecting biological reality, then they can literally make us accept anything as truth.

They are perfectly aware, which is why they don't generally put female FTM prisoners in the male estate.

This. Pronouns are Rohypnol.

There. Are. Four, Lights.

They're allowed to go in there if they ask to Eresh but they also appreciate that most of them don't want to (also in the guidance).

I read this when it came out and it pissed me off royally then and it pisses me off even more every time I read it! I still can't believe it's policy. How many women have been abused by men who were allowed into the women's estate now? How many will have to be before they change the rules?

Orchid that chart is bizarre. Implies someone can't present in more than one section. Plus the 'limited' section seems to be presenting reasons for that imited evidence as much as evidence of same.

That kind of thinking could be very risky - as if a GRC, say, is de facto evidence of the non-presence of narcissism, etc. I wonder if this is how dangerous prisoners get put into the female estate - ticking the right boxes in the top two quadrants, they are presumed to be excluded from the bottom two? Is there a hierarchy? Does a history of rape over-ride a driver's license?

God FPFW are brilliant aren't they! Thank god for them. Off to make a large donation. Fuck everybody putting women at risk like this. Shame on every single fucking one of them.

I never thought I would say this, but thank goodness for the Daily Mail - keep shining the light.

It is horrifying that male woman-killer can be put in with female prisoners and is regarded as no risk. How do they measure risk? A finger in the wind? Crystal ball?

Pronouns are indeed rhohyponl. A woman imprisoned with a homicidal male, with nowhere to escape to, can't be argued to be consenting when he rapes her. Merely by taking the pronoun "she", all the locked doors have been opened to him and he's provided with a set of women victims who can't run away or defend themselves. There is zero care for women prisoners despite the fact it is well know how vulnerable female prisoners are when large numbers of them have experienced domestic violence, rape and child abuse and many of whom have mental health issues. It's unconscionable to treat them this way.

I would be very happy to contribute to a crowdfunder so women prisoners could fight for their rights to protection from men within the prison system.

(I can't get over the weird Mumsnet rules that if a male commits the most male of crimes, sadistic murder of a woman, we're finally allowed to tell the truth and name him as "he" .)

I would be very happy to contribute to a crowdfunder so women prisoners could fight for their rights to protection from men within the prison system.

So would I!

Long term I'd also like to see male prison guards out of female prisons, but one mountain at a time.

Erythronium yes. The MNHQ rules in these instances are utterly bizarre. Just outlines the fact that we are expected to use the fictional requested pronouns as a fucking courtesy and that we are, as ever, expected to “play nice”. I do have a lot of respect for MNHQ for enabling the debate which happens here, this unique, mostly female, incredibly intelligent corner of the internet but FFS. We can say a revolting, sadistic murderer is a man, even though he says he is a woman, because he’s committed a horrible crime. And yet, other revolting characters in the AWA community must be referred to by their chosen pronouns or complaints will be made and people will feel the wrath of the ban hammer. So many unsavoury characters within this small, “vulnerable” community which is so persecuted they have special boards up and down the country to look after trans male prisoners and make sure they can be locked up with women so they can rape with impunity. Fucking hell. What an utter fucking mess it all is. How any sane person could think a man, no matter how he identifies, is appropriate in a female prison is just beyond me. Time to write to my MP again.

Agree with pp who say that there needs to be a legal challenge from the women victims of these male criminals. I do think the people making these decisions need to be held to account - the only way they can be is if there's legal action I think. Though presumably the same prison service who put violent male criminals in the female estate will move heaven and earth to prevent these women accessing justice. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

will move heaven and earth to prevent these women accessing justice

Well the guidance to schools and girl guides is any woman feeling 'uncomfortable' at the presence of a male who identifies as trans in a personal space should be reminded of the expectation to be 'kind' (have no boundaries, prioritise the needs of others to someone not reciprocating, hello power imbalance and recipe for abuse) and if necessary removed/excluded from the space.

I believe from previous discussions on prison 'inclusion' , that the risk assessment extensively looks at protecting the male who identifies as trans from the danger of experiencing 'transphobia' from the women in the prison. Which as we know, largely means 'women saying no'.