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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tools for recognising manipulative abuse

26 replies

PickledGulag · 31/05/2019 14:26

I had to learn normal after years of extreme abuse.

One of the best tools I use to stop second guessing myself against manipulation is to extract and categorise the relevant statements so that I can fully recognise them for what they are. A way of unmuddying the waters.

The following categories work for most scenarios I have had to deal with and by taking a comment or statement and putting it under one of these headings I am then able to understand it for the manipulation it is. This stops me being harmed by it and allows me to stay centred.

SHAME / DISGUST

BELITTLING / MOCKING

PATRONISING / RE-EDUCATING

MINIMISING

GASLIGHTING / IRRELEVANT

When I can't sleep I can use this process to help my brain understand what I have heard or read. I did this yesterday for a discussion on the removal of single sex toilets that I found increasingly frustrating. I took 12 hours and categorised, I feel the results shared might help others?

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PickledGulag · 31/05/2019 14:28

SHAME / DISGUST

bloody women where I work bloody hover and spray piss all over the seat!

what ‘spills’ do you need to mop up in the sink area?

been in some women only toilets that are pretty rank

washing moon cups in a hand basin. How fucking revolting.

women's toilets were absolutely disgusting

because they cry in them? Ffs. Or they need them because they have miscarriages? Well undoubtedly this happens to some but it's hardly a daily occurrence. And as for having to wash blood off their hands in front of a man.

recently found blood on the loo seat from some woman with a period sooo gross!

some sort of internalised misogyny, that nice ladies are not supposed to shit and piss and make smelly emissions, and we're supposed to pretend to men that we only ever nip off the to the "washroom" to powder our noses

Amazed at the concept that only men pee on the seats

How messy are you at changing a tampon if you end up with blood on your hands

rather share with men than "hoverers" any day

odd internalised shame about the processes of our bodies. Why should we feel shame or discomfort at letting men know we fart and shit and (shock horror!) menstruate

Can't imagine what 'spills' you get

women even put penis’s in their mouths

rather not share with anyone! Especially the ones who don’t get changed in a cubicle and do it at the sinks, wash sanitary products in them and stand gossiping for ages when I’m in there trying to pee. And women’s toilets are often disgusting

women's toilets in the last office I worked in were disgusting

have to touch blood stained toilet flushes and door handles because some women apparently get blood soaked hands when changing sanitary devices

making it totally commonplace to (gasp!) hear someone changing their tampon can only be a good thing for removing the shame surrounding menstruation

there are some pretty disgusting women

clean your moon cup in the toilet cubicle and not splatter the contents around the communal basin

gross washing a mooncup in the communal sink or being so messy your hands are covered in period blood (very unhygienic)

sanitary towels poking out the bin that is our messy problem

cleaner than the women's toilets.. Spraying hoverers who don't wipe up

wipe ones hand with toilet paper if they’re bloody

No way would I trot out in front of anyone. And I'm not precious about periods

seen absolutely vile messes left in the ladies

worst kind of feminist? The one who decides she’s more of a feminist than one of her sisters. You don’t speak for all women

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PickledGulag · 31/05/2019 14:30

BELITTLING / MOCKING

If you're scared of the sound of poos and wees anything but a private toilet wouldn't do!

Imagine trying to wash out a mooncup!

Don't really understand the mopping up a mess part and you really can't apply make-up with a man there?

"confronted" he is only washing his hands, not waiting to pounce on you like a rabid dog!

try again, cupcake

little miss woke

I'm far too old to be 'woke', but I'm definitely not asleep. Cupcake.

he is only washing his hands, not waiting to pounce on you like a rabid dog!

you are no longer accepted as a polite Mumsnet lady and henceforth are tolerated with polite disdain

complain that you have no private place to chat with other women

women moaning about a man hearing them piss, seeing them wash their hands, watching them put make up on, or hearing their gossip

they are beyond annoying. Specially the ones who waste work time having these "private chats" in the toilets aka gossiping

if a new female member of staff complained because she was uncomfortable peeing in a locked enclosed cubicle and then having to wash her hands in front of her male colleagues .. I'd be allergic

makes females sound irrational delicate creatures who need privacy to 'powder their noses and have their inevitable crying fits

irrational delicate creatures who need privacy to 'powder their noses and have their inevitable crying fits

irrational delicate creatures who need privacy to 'powder their noses and have their inevitable crying fits

not empathetic towards the women moaning

How is needing to have a gossip or apply make up valid reasons

you'd have a long walk to the nearest public one from my office

Next it will be men and women shouldn't share a bloody office

we should have toilets segregated by race, religion, age and everything else

spouting unsubstantiated and dangerous BS that they can’t support with evidence, and then accusing anyone who disagrees of being male or some sort of idiot who doesn’t get how subjugated she is

nonsense, and anyone with half a brain knows it

way to go, sister

How very astute of you, dear.

cannot remember the last time I was able to use the unisex bathrooms without some men slapping their cock & balls on the sink

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PickledGulag · 31/05/2019 14:32

PATRONISING / RE-EDUCATING

this is a progressive step in the right direction to stop making periods seem like an "uncomfortable" topic.

mixed sex toilets would reduce queuing

you think you're at risk? Because if someone was going to use the loos at work to attack someone, I doubt the female sign would put off a man going in for that reason

people who honestly feel this way need to grow up. Its a natural bodily function

If you are having chats so private that it could change dynamics than maybe you should be more professional and have them outside of the work place? Personally, sounds like high school girl's wanting to gossip.

you’d do these things in a cubicle wouldn’t you? Surely not in the communal area

My wife now uses it to shower and get changed after the gym in the morning. She's made lots of new friends

they are colleagues not potential axe murderers

Washing your hands while fully dressed is not a task that requires privacy.

not the same as eroding safe spaces for women - it is not a shelter, it is not a refuge. It isn't even the WI.

choose a more important battle. Wasting energy on the right to wash your hands without standing next to a man is distracting you

assuming the move to gender neutral spaces is driven by men, which basically makes no sense. Unless you count trans women as men

Why should those processes be hidden away from men, but not from women?

the risk in toilets is less because other people are coming in and out all the time

Not sure it is your works responsibility to provide makeup or chat rooms

take your confidential chatting time at lunch time or after work

perhaps that's why the employers have introduced it stop the excessive time women having personal chats in the loos

don't think the using it as an office gossip point is a good reason

good idea if it stops people using loos as rooms for “private chats”. Groups of women (no idea about guys, never been in a male only toilet) are beyond annoying

good idea because it avoids the thorny issue of having to decide which toilets transgender employees should use

women) should have valid reasons for why they what something, their desire or their preferences. Society should favour equality across all people, not just one sex over the other.

as workplaces become more equally mixed, gender neutral toilets actually improve things for the female

makes it more comfortable for people who identify as a difference

nice thing for society to do

just try it

separation of bathrooms in the first place was a form of subjugation of women. Similar opinions have been put forward for why single sex train carriages etc are a bad idea.

rape victim...needs need to be balanced with those of trans people, who are also very often victims of sexual abuse and violence

want the maximum footfall possible in toilets. this very definitely means unisex toilets

rape victims” seems to be a trump card that is used really specifically for issues around toilets and it’s not always that simple

separating men and women is a way of reinforcing the otherness and thus lesser status of women

only places where these gender separated places still exist aren’t countries where women are known for being treated with equal respect

Things change

have chats, put your makeup on and clean up spills. Times change and we all just have to roll with

Segregated spaces reinforce the concept of otherness

am talking about this specific topic, not women’s sports or refuges or the WI.

If nobody wants them , men included (who are allowed a voice) why are we doing it?

toliets should be used by the sex the individual identifies with

unisex is now the only option, I assume to be seen as an equal workplace

seems extreme but she has never been able to be in shared changing rooms, toliets or communal showers

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PickledGulag · 31/05/2019 14:34

MINIMISING

your "area" would be the cubical, therefore doesn't seem shared.

I don't know why you wouldn't feel comfortable putting lipstick on next to a chap. Is it because you feel you shouldn't have to, or because it actually physically makes you nervous

must be frustrating if you are used to having separate toilets, but

Don't understand the drama

I don't have an issue with it. I'll apply make up next to a man, no problem

As long as the cubicle has a door with a lock its private enough

bleeding once a month is a poor excuse for not wanting a communal bathroom

fucking drama over a non issue

reasons women have stated on here for not wanting a mixed toilet dont seem like valid reasons

far as I'm aware they'll still be privacy and dignity

everyone is respectful - no piss anywhere it shouldn't be

also feel uncomfortable washing their hands at the kitchen sink near male colleagues?

cannot imagine getting upset about this. It's just going to the loo

it's about not being a fucking major issue

it's about not being a fucking major issue

no increased risk from gender neutral bathrooms

couldn’t find anything to support the notion that it puts people in greater danger

keep obsessing over good or bad idea and thats not the point

fight against another maligned group, make a big fuss about nothing

cannot see what the fuss is about

getting strange and convoluted

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PickledGulag · 31/05/2019 14:35

GASLIGHTING / IRRELEVANT

curious how all you women know how disgusting the men's toilets are

you're making a massive generalization about men. I don't smell an "stench" from the men's

as this is Mumsnet all men are disgusting pigs

Don't ruin a perfectly reasonable argument with nonsense about all men pissing everywhere

haven't seen many men leaving the loo seat up and they are always very clean

kind of men do you all work with that stink and piss everywhere??? Never had an issue

We should be working towards the erosion of things that make women need or feel they need boundaries. Not protecting the boundaries themselves.

you're saying that men are insisting on this to get inside women's toilets. It was a company decision
misandry on MN that all men are grim

Some posters on MN just don't like men.

misandry on MN that all men are grim

saying men in general are vile and disgusting

women calling all men grim

Some men have prostrate issues

sick of hearing men slagged off

hypocritical saying you’ve went in and used men’s toilets while saying we shouldn’t have to put up with them in women’s toilets

don’t agree that men are more gross, smellier or messier

it feels weird at first because we all seem to have been taught that going to the loo is sordid and private

imagine asking for a tampon in front of a man

why do people still want to return to sex segregated spaces for gossip and makeup

anyone who doesn’t actually believe all men are rapists-in-waiting must be a misogynist

keep concentrating on your bathroom facilities and not the toxic rape culture or gender pay gap or any of the important stuff

Stop demonizing men

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PickledGulag · 31/05/2019 14:40

Sorry that's a lot!

I find it utterly clarifies things for me, the level of abuse is striking when isolated and categorised.

All of this unreasonableness was in response to very reasonable non abusive attempts at discussion and debate.

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PickledGulag · 31/05/2019 14:55

In my experience abusers only resort to minimising and irrelevance when they know they have not got a valid argument.

Shaming and mocking are usually a childish attempt at hurting and also a reflection of total lack of respect (for themselves and others) and self loathing - a sort of mirror image.

I was shocked at how much shaming was being done, I expected to mostly see patronising re-education which in this case it is also tempting to categorise under gaslighting.

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PickledGulag · 31/05/2019 15:16

Anyway all this stupidity, pages and pages of abusive bullying behaviour and not one good reason why toilets should be mixed sex, not a single one.

This is what NoDebate has created, an abusive narcissistic culture which makes unfair demands to take from others with no intention of rational discussion. A climate where attack is considered an appropriate response to any question.

I find this completely unacceptable.

The more I see this abuse for what it is the firmer I become and the more I resolve to protect single sex spaces, resist wrong think and nonsense speak and drag all of this out into the fresh air.

All of the abuse targetted at women asking very logical and reasonable questions is sexist and wrong and needs to stop.

I am so done with this.

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TheInebriati · 31/05/2019 15:18
Star
stealthsquirrelnutkin · 31/05/2019 15:27

Shaming and mocking are usually a childish attempt at hurting and also a reflection of total lack of respect (for themselves and others) and self loathing - a sort of mirror image.

I was shocked at how much shaming was being done, I expected to mostly see patronising re-education which in this case it is also tempting to categorise under gaslighting.

Thank you so much for gathering all that into one place. It is striking how much energy is being directed towards shaming and silencing women, though the list only covers the single topic of a woman's right to privacy and dignity in the shitter. It's like an avalanche that is ready to come down on anyone who dares to speak out.

Just reading through it all has given me a stomach ache, so I really admire the intestinal fortitude it must have taken to read through all those posts and extract the data.

We would all benefit from learning your techniques for recognising manipulation. I wish they'd taught us stuff like that when I was in school, It would have been a lot more useful than understanding the formation of ox bow lakes.

Now that Women's Liberation is being reborn these are the sort of skills women's groups need to disseminate. How many young girls might be saved from the misery of hormones, binders and surgery if they were being taught pattern recognition and constructive resistance tactics?

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TheInebriati · 31/05/2019 16:03

My first step is to analyze my emotional response, then look for the emotion driving the other persons behaviour, because emotions drive thinking and behaviour.

Robert Plutchiks wheel of emotions;
www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/201601/what-are-basic-emotions

images.app.goo.gl/YYvpN6tzH9gMVpH38

truthisarevolutionaryact · 31/05/2019 16:11

The more I see this abuse for what it is the firmer I become and the more I resolve to protect single sex spaces, resist wrong think and nonsense speak and drag all of this out into the fresh air

Thank you OP for this - it becomes very hard not to collapse under the torrent of misogyny and blame that is thrown at women trying to defend our rights these days and it helps to have it unpicked like this.

nevernotstruggling · 31/05/2019 16:31

This is so so good I wish it was all on one page to post on Facebook x

SisterWendyBuckett · 31/05/2019 16:48

YES!!! Thank you for this posting this.

It's so easy for the brain to become really scrambled in response to all the upside down word salad, black is white nonsense, unscientific rubbish and gaslighting.

This helps to analyse and critique the crap and see what's going on.

ScottishDoll · 07/06/2019 11:47

In my experience abusers only resort to minimising and irrelevance when they know they have not got a valid argument.

This is really ringing true right now for me.

PickledGulag · 10/06/2019 11:36

Define red.

Tools for recognising manipulative abuse
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R0wantrees · 10/06/2019 11:47

PickledGulag Great work thank you.
Its so powerful to see the comments this way. Star

Im also learning to step back, observe & categorise first.
Its such a helpful pause & potential antidote to the fog & gaslighting.

Manipulators want the emotional reaction
Its all supply to them.

PickledGulag · 11/06/2019 09:51

Courtesy of TheBewilderness www.reddit.com/r/Gender_Critical/comments/6kkeni/the_rules_of_misogyny/

The Rules of Misogyny

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.

5th rule of misogyny: WATM! Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.

7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say.

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.

12th rule of misogyny: Whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

13th rule of misogyny: Women are not oppressed! Rape and catcalling and objectification are all compliments, not oppression.

14th rule of misogyny: Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.

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JustAnotherWoman · 11/06/2019 10:08

Wow well done for collating these comments Flowers hope writing them up was cathartic rather than discouraging

PickledGulag · 11/06/2019 10:18

I wouldn't say cathartic, it sickens me to the stomach reading through this stuff.

The usefulness of it is how easily the manipulation can be seen for what it is when rinsed free of bluster. That makes it easier in future to spot abusive messages hidden among word salad.

The faster and easier it is for women to recognise abuse, however camouflaged, the easier it is to refuse it, stand up to it and not be doubting ourselves when we are chided to "be nice" or "be kind" to our own detriment.

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PickledGulag · 21/07/2019 00:56

This is an enlightening post from expert James Harris, an ex FBI agent, on what motivates child sexual abusers in the wake of the Epstein scandal. Worth a read.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1150128187889934337.html
twitter.com/jimeharrisjr

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AnotherAdultHumanFemale · 21/07/2019 01:52

I wrote a really similar list when I was trying to process that I had been in an abusive relationship. He gaslighted me so much it was really confusing so writing each incident down under different headings was massively helpful. It was amazing how by the end he ticked off all the boxes of a domestic abuser when at the time I'd thought he was this wonderful guy I was lucky to meet. I find daily journaling really helpful especially if you suspect someone is lying to you or you have a bad feeling about something, the subconscious seems to be able to reveal the truth on the page.

Watchfulwaiter · 21/07/2019 02:05

Why does he do that
Lundy Bancroft

Got me away from 20 y relationship