Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

People who are anti abortion from conception, how do you feel about IVF?

315 replies

KennDodd · 29/05/2019 23:09

Watching Newsnight and the anti abortion debate in America. Person saying life begins at conception and deserves protection. Well what does that mean for IVF? If life begins at conception and deserves protection, then does that include protection for life before implantation in the womb? If not, why not?

Interested to hear pro lifers view on this.

OP posts:
Endofthedays · 30/05/2019 16:39

Breathlessness, maybe you’d like to go and post of all this on MN’s miscarriage campaign thread, then we can all stop worrying about it, creating health and safety laws around it etc.

PrayingandHoping · 30/05/2019 16:39

One poster that I could see posted 1.7m. But out of context (as on over what period of time) and also at what stage these embryos were discarded (as in were they viable ones or did it include unviable ones which would be a high number)

Anyone can pluck numbers out the air. They need context

People talking about their ivf experience should give people who clearly don't know about the process some content and see that the "high number" scenario is just not backed up by reality

tenbob · 30/05/2019 16:40

The MN campaign on miscarriage care was focussed on helping improve services for women who have suffered a miscarriage

It was nothing to do with the causes of miscarriage, because it has been pretty well-established that the vast, vast majority of miscarriages can't be prevented

You seem a bit confused by this thread...

Goosefoot · 30/05/2019 16:45

I'm sorry, it simply is not true that viable embryos are never discarded. That is a potentiality n many instances unless deliberately avoided. You can find records of people doing this and talking about it.

And as I said, if it is deliberately avoided, that particular objection isn't relevant, it would be nice if people read whole comments.

But as far as the idea that if it is ethically the same to conceive someone who could die, as it is to conceive someone who you intend to kill, I am not sure why that seems confusing.

Everyone who is conceived will die, sooner or later. Some quite soon. We don't consider it to be an ethical conundrum. On the other hand, we do think killing someone is ethically challenging, even if there are good reasons which may be justifiable.

Endofthedays · 30/05/2019 16:45

I am not at all confused by this thread.

Part of support for women who have had miscarriages is prevention, quality of services and research. It is also about looking at circumstances such as DV risk which is also mitigated by adequate services.

Breathlessness · 30/05/2019 16:47

A lot of ‘pro-lifers’ seem very interested in miscarriages.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-47487116

StitchingMoss · 30/05/2019 16:47

IME lots of Catholics oppose IVF until they need it, then suddenly it’s all different.

Gotta love the hypocrisy of religion.

PrayingandHoping · 30/05/2019 16:48

Link to telegraph article re 1.7m disposed embryos

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9772233/1.7-million-human-embryos-created-for-IVF-thrown-away.html

No clear time frame for numbers stated but assume is from when ivf started.....

Also nowhere does it state the stage of the embryos when they were discarded so really the number can not be taken seriously as there is no way of knowing if they were viable or not. Very ambiguous

Article also dated 2012 and ivf legislation has come a looooong way in the uk since then

startrek90 · 30/05/2019 16:49

I view ivf the same way I view abortion and that is that while I would never choose for myself to undertake either I don't believe I have a right to make that decision for anyone else. I will confess to more disquiet? To ivf just because there is a tendency to dehumanise the process and its is open to far more exploitation in terms of economic and ethical issues. I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea of designer babies though I understand where the good intentions are. In short I have no idea whether I am anti abortion or pro choice or not tbh. A lot of anti abortion activists would say I am pro choice and a lot of pro choice would say I am on the other side so I don't know.

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 30/05/2019 16:50

I'm assuming that anyone who's against stem cell research will stand by their morals and will refuse treatment that has used stem cell research...

It's also highly regulated in this country. Scientists can fact a lengthy prison term for malpractice. They're not just pissing about willy nilly with a bunch of embryos for shits and giggles. Scientific research is incredibly expensive and funnily enough scientists I know tend to take their work and responsibility seriously.

PrayingandHoping · 30/05/2019 16:51

@Goosefoot no one on here has said never. Obv circumstances can change.

Endofthedays · 30/05/2019 16:51

I’m not pro life Breathlessness. I am however a feminist on a feminist board who has had 2 miscarriages been in a DV situation.

‘Domestic violence has been identified as a prime cause of miscarriage or still-birth and of maternal deaths during childbirth and within the six weeks following birth 11 new mothers were known to have been murdered my their male partners during 2000-02. As shocking is the knowledge that 14% of all the women who died during or immediately after pregnancy had reported domestic violence to a health professional during the pregnancy.‘

From Cardiff women’s aid.

Endofthedays · 30/05/2019 16:53

Prayers, it was norm who said there were HEFA stats about it. It wasn’t about the Telegraph article.

kenandbarbie · 30/05/2019 16:54

There must be many more fertilized eggs that do not implant due to the forms of contraception that prevent implantation, than left over from ivf. Theoretically you could have a fertilized egg every month with the coil, or at least the coils without hormones.

Endofthedays · 30/05/2019 16:55

Yes, many women don’t use the coil for that reason.

PrayingandHoping · 30/05/2019 16:57

Ok.... and norms post stated a hfea quote that myself and others have tried to back up that a high percentage of those discarded are not viable and the likelihood of spare viable embryos is low

JoJoSM2 · 30/05/2019 16:58

I'm a pro-lifer (with some exceptions) and had IVF. Nothing hypocritical about it - I had a medical problem and that's how it could b treated.

I do potentially face a bit of a conundrum and I'm not sure what we'll do. I asked the clinic to freeze all my embryos, even the ones that looked half dead and like they didn't have a chance. Morally, I felt I'd like all of them put back to give them a chance. As it is, I've now had a baby and still have lots of embryos in the freezer. Unfortunately, they can't be donated to another couple as I didn't meet the criteria. And I don't feel like I could cope with that many children either... We'll have another transfer this year and see what happens. It might be that they don't take or I suffer a miscarriage but if we do have another child or two, I'll be well and truly stuck with the remaining embryos.

Endofthedays · 30/05/2019 16:59

No, I posted a HEFA quote. Norms said the stats are on the HEFA website. I can’t find them and now you say no numbers exist.

So we’re pages further on and still have no idea of the actual numbers, much less able to debate what would or would not be considered high.

Goosefoot · 30/05/2019 17:01

If you want context on the 1.7 million number, you can look up the article, it is fairly detailed. There were certainly numbers of embryos that were viable that were stored, or given to research.

Anecdotes can tell us something, but they don't really give us data.

This is an odd thread. The OP question seemed to be asking about this in light of the pro-life movement, where there is sometimes criticism that they don't also object to IFV treatments. Something which you hear particularly from feminists and I have read it on this forum. Someone on this thread suggested it was proof pro-life campaigners only care about controlling women, not about babies.
To which people have said, yes, actually, many pro-life campaigners do object to IFV, for that and sometimes other reasons.

So, now the main argument seems to be, actually, no, this doesn't happen. So perhaps that answers the OPs question, its a false premise. I'll mention that bit of context whenever someone argues that it is an inconsistency.

PrayingandHoping · 30/05/2019 17:04

When I said they don't exist it's because I also can't find them on the hfea website

The numbers the telegraph article got were from the hfea (just not written with any scientific context)

If you feel strongly there is an issue here why don't you write to them and ask for figures. I'm not expert on the freedom of information act but it may come under it and they could give you the numbers in a useful (rather than dramatic journalism) context

nevernotstruggling · 30/05/2019 17:04

Ivf is a last resort. What about the other forms of assisted conception is that ok? Clonid etc?

PrayingandHoping · 30/05/2019 17:06

@Goosefoot I have read the article and have issues that no timeline was clearly given on the data nor the status of the embryos discarded relating to the 1.7m number

Goosefoot · 30/05/2019 17:07

IME lots of Catholics oppose IVF until they need it, then suddenly it’s all different.Gotta love the hypocrisy of religion.

As opposed to non-religion? People justifying things to themselves, or changing their mind in thoughtful response to experience seem across the board human traits.

The Catholic Church has been pretty consistent on this, they make changes sometimes in light of new technologies or information, but they've always opposed IVF.

JoJoSM2 · 30/05/2019 17:10

Nevernotstruggling, no one goes straight to IVF if there are simpler ways to get treated.

Goosefoot · 30/05/2019 17:12

PrayingandHoping

From what I remember the article says it covers 21 years, and they give a breakdown of what happened to the embryos. Particularly the ones frozen and stored and those donated to science are relevent. In the first cases and likely some of the second you are going to be taking about embryos that appear to be viable - they haven't been discarded as non-viable.