People who are anti abortion from conception, how do you feel about IVF?

[KennDodd]

Watching Newsnight and the anti abortion debate in America. Person saying life begins at conception and deserves protection. Well what does that mean for IVF? If life begins at conception and deserves protection, then does that include protection for life before implantation in the womb? If not, why not?

Interested to hear pro lifers view on this.

I agree that id expect someone who is pro ivf would be pro choice around abortion. Just because someone is infertile doesn't necessitate another woman to go through pregnancy and have a baby, it isn't a zero sum game.

I also haven't said that anyone is entitled to parenthood, that's not my view. Infertility is a medical condition and hugely affects mental health so I'm probably as offended by your suggestion that it's a rights based issue as you are with my wording of "creating extras". Part of the process has to be to distance ones self to the possibility that each embryo is a life. Every miscarriage and failed transfer is a reminder of the potential future that will never be.

We very much disagree but I'm interested to hear the points of view. Should we be naming the embryos and providing funerals when they fail? If they're a life, should they have legal documentation? Is there a question of fault and blame if a miscarriage takes place and that life is lost? I have a lot of questions!

I've been through IVF: contrary to popular belief, it's not all funded by the NHS and many people have to fund it themselves. This makes me uneasy: I've always thought the NHS should be about saving lives, but then only people who have a spare 10k lying around can afford IVF - social engineering? We were lucky that we could.

Before we started the process, from everything I'd read we expected to get 4 embryos if we were lucky. Instead we got double digits in the freezer. Now after several miscarriages I don't know if I can face another round: should I be donating the spare embryos to other couples, and potentially have to see my and my husband's children as adults?

Interestingly, DM was against IVF right from when it started - her views were very much the same as yours Lass. Then I needed it and overnight her views changed.

I can completely understand why people are ethically against it, just as I can understand why they're against abortion. I don't think anyone goes into IVF to destroy life, whether they do or not of course depends on whether you think that life begins the minute the sperm and the egg join.

I also can understand being against both abortion and ivf, there I a logic to this.
Having seen what these early stage embryos look like I find it very hard to get too emotional about them. I desperately wanted mine to turn into dc but all they have in the beginning is the potential, they really are just a little cluster of cells.
We ended up with 2 viable embryos and a 3rd that was too low grade to use. So we never had to decide what to do with any spare.
Also wanted to add that we had to fund our ivf as it has always been a post code lottery.

I believe in a woman’s right to say no to sex, I believe in a woman’s right to an abortion, and I believe in a woman’s right to have IVF if she wants it. Many people who don’t believe in one of the above tend to have dodgy attitudes to the other stuff too.

Don't many contraceptives work to prevent a fertilised egg implanting? What about those?

Yup, most pro lifers I have seen arguing are also very against contraception, and have particular hate for the morning after pill. So basically, they want noone to use contraception but also noone to ever terminate. I wonder how they would take it if women just said 'alrght then' and stopped having sex completely.

In terms of IVF, it's not pro-lifers place to deny women the chance to become parents.

Well its not pro lifers place to tell any woman she HAS to have a baby either. But they have no issue doing that. I really really don't get why these people can't just..well not have abortions themselves and leave it at that rather than trying to control others. If I dislike something, I avoid it, I don't petition to stop others doing it just because I disagre with it, thats stupid!

I agree that id expect someone who is pro ivf would be pro choice around abortion.

The OP asked specifically about people who see conception as the relevant beginning of life, and yes, that would mean no IFV either. I think there are plenty of people though, maybe even most people, who don't worry about embryos in very early days as with IFV, but do begin to object to abortion, or at least some abortions, later on in the pregnancy. I would guess there are a fair number like that who would think of themselves as pro-life but be ok with IFV.

I find it concerning that embryos from IVF can be experimented on.

An embryo that is outside of a woman’s body surely falls under a different set of ethics, in the sense that society should have a say in what happens to it?

An gamete doesn’t count as conception thpughdoes it? I thought conception was fertilisation plus implantation. Not pro life though...

I agree that id expect someone who is pro ivf would be pro choice around abortion

Well I'm pro- choice on abortion and vehemently opposed to IVF.

I would guess there are a fair number like that who would think of themselves as pro-life but be ok with IFV

I'm the opposite. A pregnant woman's rights comes before a foestus' but creating embryos to order and dispose is not acceptable for me.

I find it concerning that embryos from IVF can be experimented on

So do I. That is revolting actually.

They’re embryos, not gametes.

I've always thought the NHS should be about saving lives, but then only people who have a spare 10k lying around can afford IVF - social engineering?

IVF isn't saving lives. If NHS spending needs to be cut in my opinion IVF should be at the top of the list.

Plenty of people don’t have children or limit the number of children they have because they can’t afford them, regardless of IVF.

There are plenty of services that the nhs offers that aren't life saving, should we cut them all?

I believe in a woman's right to abortion.
I believe in a woman/mans right to access Ivf.

The vast majority of Ivf cycles results in no embryos "wasted".

I read one doctor say that the average number of embryos created was 12 per cycle. Is there some official source to get better evidence?

The HFEA has statistics available on their website.

Say you got 12 eggs, not all of those will fertilise so you could end up with 8 fertilising and becoming embryos, to maximise the chance of a healthy pregnancy and live birth they try to get to day 5 blastocyst stage. Most of the 8 won't make it so the chances are you'd end up with 1 to use and 1 to freeze.

I think people don't fully understand the Ivf process and the ignorance shows.

You said there were no left over embryos in the vast majority of cycles? So is one to freeze an exception?

Of course most people are ignorant about what goes on in IVF. That’s part of the reason for having a thread about it- to learn.

One to freeze is an exception.

So in most IVF cycles, would all the viable embryos be implanted?

There are plenty of services that the nhs offers that aren't life saving, should we cut them all?

Indeed there are but there isn't a limitless pot of money. Infertility might be very sad on a personal level but that still doesn't mean the NHS should be obliged to fund it.

Re the number of eggs/ embryos another poster said For example, a women may have 12 eggs collected, 6 of them fertilise, and 4 make it to blastocyst stage

In most IVF cycles IN THE UK there’s nothing suitable to freeze, and only 1-2 blastocyst embryos available for transfer. Most clinics, in the absence of anything to freeze, will transfer whatever they can if possible. NHS cycles tend to be stricter about double embryo transfers and in that case the best one may be transferred and the lesser one destroyed (if it can’t be frozen) but that isn’t a consistant practice.

@LassOfFyvie i find your "morals" repugnant.

I’ve looked at the HEFA website and it says that often several embryos are created.

Yes several embryos may well be created but due to natural selection it's highly unlikely that several will be left by day 5.

Infertility is often linked to other health issues, a symptom if you like. Why should we treat some symptoms of a health issue and not others?