Toilets again - desire for privacy is 'transphobic' apparently

[Oldstyle]

UCLA students complaining about the proposed new mixed-sex loos because:
“Specifically the floor-to-ceiling dividers for all-gender restrooms, they [the University] want them to be much … longer than for men’s and women’s restroom, and we take this as a sign of transphobia because … this basically comes out of a want for privacy and an all-gender restroom, and that want for privacy comes from a fear of trans and nonbinary people” said a student spokesperson.
Might be 'over there' right now but sure as eggs is non-binary eggs, it'll be here too before long...
dailybruin.com/2019/05/28/students-voice-concerns-about-bathroom-policy-security-camera-monitoring/

Interesting thought goosefoot - had never seen it this way. And italiangreyhound - yes! It would be perfectly easy to do this. Also to say no organisation could make loos and changing rooms gender neutral until they were properly private and enclosed. That would not stop certain people but it would at least make it much harder for them.

I agree that the complicity of young, female students might have something to do with a lack of awareness of the dangers involved. Those of us who came of age in the 1990s or before had a lot more freedom and we were less supervised- we played out more, walked to school on our own or with our friends, took public transport on our own a lot more and went to town on our own. This freedom and lack of parental supervision meant we were more exposed to pervy men, which made us more aware of danger.

Kids are more sheltered and protected by their parents these days and might be less likely to run into these guys at a young age, so when they go to university they may not fully understand how dangerous men can be.

I've been thinking about his a bit. I don't think that this kind of stuff from students is all about them wanting to control or put down women.

It is from some of them. And the rest go along with it for the reasons mentioned, due to the propaganda that trans people are the most oppressed sector of society and nothing can possibly be allowed to upset them.

Goosefoot
Yes I agree there is an element of political tribalism at play, but here in the UK even right wing conservatives are uttering TWAW it was Teresa May herself that promised to pass Self-ID.
The Church of England are taking Mermaids word for fact and a vicar recently left his job because of that.

The problem is there are so many different factors at play here, one it's being forced through top-down by MRAs who we know are in no short supply in politics/powerful tech companies etc, because really the TRA end goal and the MRA end goal are one and the same.
Secondly, we have regulatory capture taking place.
Also, Trans is the new "cool" amongst young people and having a trans child is the new "cool" amongst parents, and attractive to homophobic parents who see it as a way to make their effeminate possibly gay son into a straight girl as we see in other cultures already such as Iran, Thailand, India (where effeminate gay boys are considered a "third sex").

There's a mass hysteria going on in in the Anglosphere surrounding sex/gender/pronouns etc which is cross-party, it doesn't help that all dissenting voices are shut down, removed from platforms, removed from employment, threatened, assaulted, etc because ultimately the TRA agender is a misogynists wet dream.

^agender lol
Agenda obvs

But but but

Study after study shows that lots of girls get sexually assaulted / sexually bullied at school.

In general, while wealth etc can protect from the worst of the shit, it can't protect from all of it. These girls will have been going out by themselves by 18. Waking to school etc.

I don't think that the idea that women girls can avoid poor behaviour from men, and in such numbers, is correct.

I think what's going on here is cool girl syndrome. And cognitive dissonance. And yes a lack of awareness or thought about how their ideas impact eg women in prison or in secure mental health units. But, the idea they have somehow never experienced any iffy behaviour from men or boys is v unlikely given what we know of the uk, and prime harassment age being 13ish onwards.

I think what's going on here is cool girl syndrome. And cognitive dissonance. And yes a lack of awareness or thought about how their ideas impact eg women in prison or in secure mental health units.

I think this goes a long way to explaining it but there is possibly also an element of middle class guilt for some.

I was brought up by "working class parents made good" in a middle class area and was a student in the late 80s . It was incredibly common for girls like myself to cringe at what would now be called their privilege and defer to anyone who was deemed to be more oppressed even if it was to the girl's own detriment.

This was well before identity politics/ opression olympics had really kicked in so feck knows what it must be like now.

If these young women are anything like us they will be spending a fair amount of time apologising for their own existence.

Hmm yes inverse snobbery was a thing when I was young

Also I suppose, many of these girls will ID as trans, so assuage middle class guilt by identifying into an id they see as oppressed.

Actually more likely is that the boys all id as trans, to get away from the privilege max straight white male thing, and the girls are then to look after them, same as time immemorial. Do their work for them, lobby for them, do the emotional heavy lifting. While the chaps can get on with whatever it is they are doing, maybe dying hair blue, or experimenting with eyeliner and mini skirts, or honing their anime avatar, wanking over extreme porn or coercing girls Inc lesbians into sex. So, same old same old really must with a bit of extra glitter.

Yes, the hierarchical politics of oppression is significant for young people I think. In general I think that approach has been absolutely toxic - it leads to this kind of bad policy from those that buy into it. And then those who can't buy into it are often radicalised in the other direction.

I think we have to be really careful ourselves about this kind of argument, maybe no one here is inclined to use it about trans issues, but people do use it with feminist and sometimes other issues. But being the oppressed class in some context doesn't usually tell us if a particular idea is right or not - it has very limited use with certain types of situations. If we use that kind of argument about our own preferred causes it makes it acceptable in other causes as well.

Something else about universities. I don't know how common it in in the UK, but here most university residences, including toilets, are co-ed. It's been the case for a while as well, it was beginning to be the norm when I graduated in '99. That may well influence the views of the students.

Actually more likely is that the boys all id as trans, to get away from the privilege max straight white male thing, and the girls are then to look after them, same as time immemorial.

On the money!

Yeah I don't think it's just naive little girls who can't imagine creepy men. But I bet that they're not picturing AGP older men when they fight these battles.

When you're young, I think you're more likely to think of feminism as a dirty, uncool and unnecessary thing (or at least me and all my friends did). Because the world is better now! Everyone's equal! Except for transpeople - like your insanely fragile friend Rob who's questioning his gender identity, or your autistic friend Jen who says she's not a woman - and who would want to hurt them? What monster would do that?

But I bet that they're not picturing AGP older men when they fight these battles

Absolutely.

I regarded myself as a feminist when I was younger but I seemed to have missed a bit wrt to being nice as part of female socialisation.

I've said it before but I only really started to unpick that since being on the FWR boards - it took me to late 40s/ early 50s to really see it.

Goosefoot my halls put the sexes on different floors. The shower blocks and toilets on the floors were for that sex. Being students though, in the drunken evenings I don't think it was v heavily policed.

This was years ago though.

Still I'd be surprised at mixed sex shower blocks unless they are totally enclosed but even then, boys don't want girls wandering in and out when they're shaving and girls don't want boys there while they're wandering around in a towel, surely.

The problem with id politics is that the word oppression has lost all meaning. Now it just means "people feel bad."

It used to mean, in political contexts, "exploitation": meaning there were specific legal, political, and social structures that existed that served to let one group of people take from another group of people their resources, labour, or fruits of their labour. That's why leftists focused on 1) class, 2) sex, and 3) race/ethnicity -- because those were the 3 big groupings of people subject to exploitation.

Other groupings of people might be subject to discrimination or disadvantage, but that's not the same thing. Which isn't to say that shouldn't be tackled.

But leftists priortized the class politics of exploitation as fundamental.

When you look through the lens of class politics, there is NO way on earth to call TW "oppressed" because there are no legal, political, or social structures existing to take anything from them. There is no possible way that they are The Most Oppressed Ever.

They may be discriminated against, and that shouldn't happen. It's hard to see how they're disadvantaged, precisely, because there is nothing they can't access that a male similarly positioned can't access and in fact quite a bit more that they're accessing now that a similarly positioned male cannot access.

This confusion around what constitutes "oppression" is a result of postmodernism's bastardising of political language and concepts that have been used on the left for nearly 200 years.

It was incredibly common for girls like myself to cringe at what would now be called their privilege and defer to anyone who was deemed to be more oppressed even if it was to the girl's own detriment.

Yep.

BickerinBrattle

When you look through the lens of class politics, there is NO way on earth to call TW "oppressed" because there are no legal, political, or social structures existing to take anything from them. There is no possible way that they are The Most Oppressed Ever.

They may be discriminated against, and that shouldn't happen. It's hard to see how they're disadvantaged, precisely, because there is nothing they can't access that a male similarly positioned can't access and in fact quite a bit more that they're accessing now that a similarly positioned male cannot access.

Spot on! No shrugging off the male privilege. Add to that the instant demonisation of anyone questioning whether TWAW, and no one decent wants to be a bigot let alone a T* or as bad as a racist or a homophobe and there's nothing left to say.

Still I'd be surprised at mixed sex shower blocks unless they are totally enclosed but even then, boys don't want girls wandering in and out when they're shaving and girls don't want boys there while they're wandering around in a towel, surely.

My impression is a lot o them have separate enclosed shower spaces for individuals, and often separate toilet/sink rooms for men and women. But I've also been told that for the most part toilets are used by everyone anyway.

Something else about universities. I don't know how common it in in the UK, but here most university residences, including toilets, are co-ed. It's been the case for a while as well, it was beginning to be the norm when I graduated in '99. That may well influence the views of the students.

Back in the mid 1980s I was at university in London and lived in Hughes Parry Hall (part of the Garden Halls) in the 1st and 3rd years.

Back then boys and girls were on separate floors of the tower (there were twelve floors of rooms) with appropriate communal toilets and showers on each floor.

The adjoining Halls (Commonwealth and Canterbury) were both single sex Halls.

A few years ago they knocked down most of the Halls (but kept the tower) and rebuilt an all-new 21st century Hall which, quite coincidentally, my DD is now staying at now that she is also studying in London.

So, I've had a chance to nose around the accommodation to see what has changed over the 35 years since I was there.

Around 75% of the rooms are now totally ensuite with a toilet and shower in each room. This is all catered accommodation.

Around 25% of rooms are in the old Hughes Parry tower (the only bit they kept) and are now self-catered (they used to be catered in the old days) with a kitchen on each floor and the floors are no longer segregated by sex. Each room has its own toilet and basin but there aren't individual showers however, the showers are all in separate cubicles and there is around one shower for every two people.

So, it's interesting that the latest Hall of Residence built in London has totally avoided the whole issue of "gender neutral" toilets by giving every student their own toilet and, most of them, their own shower as well.

Is the 3rd year female philosophy student Chelsea Dyapa (quoted as believing floor to ceiling doors are transphobic) actually the bloke with the beard in the maroon shirt?

As a student I would not have had too much concern over mixed facilities even without floor to ceiling doors. I actually worked in a school abroad with mixed sex loos and working urinals (which the men used in-front of female colleagues). I was rather taken aback at first, walked very fast to the cubicle if there was a bloke pissing and didn’t appreciate the stench. However I’m older, wiser, a parent to a female child and disabled.

Why the fuck are the views of woke people barely in adulthood being listened to?? They haven’t been around the block. They just don’t get it.... yet.

'My impression is a lot o them have separate enclosed shower spaces for individuals'

How can you possibly know this?

Lots of university accommodation is very old. What makes you imagine it has all been refitted? Including the loss of space that would entail? They aren't going to knock down eg walls in listed buildings to change it all around. I'm sure lots of uni accommodation is the same as when it was built including the newer stock from 80s 90s 00s etc.

I don't think statements like 'oh yes I imagine all showers in halls are mixed sex with fully enclosed stalls and the sinks are in the toilets (why? and who wants to brush their teeth in the bogs??) are based in anything solid.

It’s probably because en suite accommodation commands a premium.

I was just discussing this with DH. We were at uni in the early 90s. I was in SC accommodation and the flats of 5 were split by sex, but you could have male and female flats off the same landing. DH was in a similar set up further out of town, but the immediately adjacent catered hall had single bedrooms with a wash basin and communal mixed sex showers and loos on each floor. It would have been a nightmare now, as the showers had brick built partitions to the floor but were open under the doors and at the top. It would have been very easy for people to perve with camera phones or small spy cams nowadays. One of my best friends roomed there and I used to crash on her floor after a night out, but I always waited to shower until I got back to my flat.

Wow nicky that sounds luxurious!

How expensive is it?

Quick google of my old uni

'The buildings are subdivided into house units, each with 40-50 rooms, a common room, utility room and a flat for your Residential Life Advisor.

Bathroom facilities and small kitchens are shared.

Each house is mixed with men and women accommodated on separate floors.'

"Trans is the new "cool" amongst young people and having a trans child is the new "cool" amongst parents, and attractive to homophobic parents who see it as a way to make their effeminate possibly gay son into a straight girl..."

Please do not assume this is true, especially in the UK. It might be for some but parents of trans children may also be very worried about their child for all kinds of reasons.

It may look like they are fully accepting and all that but behind the scenes many parents of trans identifying youth are concerned. You only need to read the boards here to see parents are not rushing headlong into celebrating trans children.

We've all seen a few videos on You Tube or Facebook but really it's not that simple at all.