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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women are happier without children or a spouse - Guardian article

74 replies

GraceMarks · 25/05/2019 16:11

Sorry for the Guardian link, but:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert

Thoughts? I'm single and childless, and I think it's easier to be happy about that if it's a choice you've made for yourself, and not because you just didn't find anyone you wanted to settle down and start a family with.

But I find it interesting that studies seem to consistently conclude that women are better off being unmarried. On the Relationships board, women are always being urged to get married before they have children because otherwise they'll be left with no protection in the event of a split. Why then are we obliged to choose between happiness and security, assuming the studies are true?

As a side note, I quite like the sound of Paul Dolan!

OP posts:
Whatisthisfuckery · 28/05/2019 13:21

Most lesbians, myself included, did the comp het thing before we came out so we’re all happier by default than we were.

All of my het peers who married in their 20s or younger are divorced now, every single one of them, some of them twice. There are a considerable number who go from one shit relationship to another without ever finding their own level being single. It very much looks like any man is better than no man, which evidently is not a recipe for happiness.

Sux2buthen · 28/05/2019 13:27

No shit lol

IcedPurple · 28/05/2019 17:50

All of my het peers who married in their 20s or younger are divorced now,

If they got married in their teens it's no real surprise they ended up divorced!

IcedPurple · 28/05/2019 17:54

Single women are happy until they want a family.

Like Empress, I've never wanted 'a family', if by that you mean the traditional set-up of man, woman and kids. Has simply never appealed in the slightest.

Thank said most men aren’t domesticated and even if you want to settle down living with a man can be quite unpleasant.

That being the case, maybe we should encourage women in general - and our daughters if we have them - to be clear-eyed about the realities of marriage and motherhood beyond the rose tinted nonsense and the general assumption that it's every woman's goal in life.

IcedPurple · 28/05/2019 17:56

To those quibbling about the definitions or parameters of this study, bear in mind that it's not just this study. Research over the years has consistently shown that rates of well-being stagnate or drop for women upon marriage, and rise for men.

Obviously there are exceptions, but this has been shown time and time again. it's not meant as an affront to those who are married with kids and are happy. But the general trend is quite significant and consistent.

Tewsey · 28/05/2019 17:57

I don’t believe any of these surveys perform any function beyond clickbait - standardising happiness ratings is silly.

In general good health, sense of fulfilment and independence, being surrounded by people you see as peers and connect with socially and intellectually, having stuff in your life you’re proud of, is probably desirable.

How you achieve that (children? Marriage? Friends? Career? Travel? Drinking coffee and interior design?) is pretty much a “how long is a piece of string” argument.

One woman’s heaven is another woman’s living prison. And we have a long lifespan now so women may go through different life stages on the way.

In general, not getting into debt, or taking on difficult men or aspiring to a long term lifestyle (including children) beyond your earning capacity/workaholism tendencies is probably a good idea.

I think “ignore newspapers and people who may have their own agenda and find your own way ” is probably a good moral for younger women in terms of relationships

With online dating, it literally is the easiest thing in the world to meet new dates.

So more choices are out there - the key is to be mindful about making the best decisions for you in terms of dating or not dating or being single or not (and taking it lightly and accepting you may make some funny turns on the way)

The media tends to present
issues related to women in very “either/or” terms and it’s not as simple as that

IcedPurple · 28/05/2019 18:12

I don’t believe any of these surveys perform any function beyond clickbait - standardising happiness ratings is silly.

I disagree. Yes, studies based on subjective ideas of happiness are always going to be imperfect but that doesn't make them useless. If that's what you think, then quite a bit of social and psychological research will seem pointless to you.

But when, over a range of different times and places, studies consistently show that well-being declines for women but rises for men after marriage, then I definitely think that is worth paying attention to. Particularly as it goes against the common stereotypes of miserable single women and carefree bachelors.

Again, that certainly doesn't mean some women won't be happier with husbands and children than they were without them, because obviously that is not the case. But in a world where women and girls are - still - surrounded by the idea that marriage and children should be the goal and failure to 'achieve' this is failure in life, we should certainly be aware that there are other options, options which are at least as likely to bring happiness.

RosaWaiting · 28/05/2019 18:13

Iced "Research over the years has consistently shown that rates of well-being stagnate or drop for women upon marriage, and rise for men. "

yes, I think it's good to see that because it counters the constant bombardment of "why aren't you dating" etc that seems to be everywhere now.

RosaWaiting · 28/05/2019 18:14

cross posting everywhere

Iced "Particularly as it goes against the common stereotypes of miserable single women"

yes, I really think this stereotype is problematic and damaging. The brainwashing starts so early with girls, they often really believe that marriage and children is essential for their happiness.

DuMondeB · 28/05/2019 18:29

I think I probably found it easier to maintain a constant hum of happiness when I was single... but at that time I was also young, and still had by beloved mother.

That’s not to say I have sat in an unhappy marriage for years, i’m actually blissfully happy with my husband (number three! I’m such an optimist! 🙊) but having children made definitely made consistent happiness harder.
My eldest (18) has ASD/ADHD, and finding a way for him to navigate the NT world has been pretty intense, and my youngest (7) has a rare cancer-like autoimmune disease. If I’d stayed childfree I would have had undoubtedly had fewer troughs, but I don’t think the peaks would’ve been comparable.

My littlest rang the ‘End of Treatment Bell’ last week, and despite crying my eyes out, I doubt I will ever be happier than I was in that moment.

DonutMagic · 28/05/2019 18:49

I often wonder if a lot of my fellow women are so unhappy in marriage because so many of us see it as the end goal (fairy tale wedding) rather than the start of something like more manner to IME.

Men don't seem to get excited about wedding dresses etc and this is maybe why so many of us feel let down once the smoke clears.

DonutMagic · 28/05/2019 18:50

like more men do IME that should've read.

MrsDrudge · 28/05/2019 19:04

This is not new - a sociological study by Ann Oakley in 1980s found just the same, and not only in terms of happiness but in terms of achieving career ambitions and earning power. The reverse was true for men. Her conclusion in terms of these criteria was “ single women are the cream of the crop; single men the bottom of the barrel”.

TeiTetua · 28/05/2019 20:19

Here's a song about it:

Javagrey · 28/05/2019 21:01

Great sum up Tei

Grin
heartshapedpositnotes · 28/05/2019 22:18

DuMondeB - my goodness, am sending love to you all and your little one Thanks.

Your points about the dichotomy between the extreme highs and lows were very profound. It reminds me of a Ted Talk where a couple talks about, in chart terms, the extremes that come with parenthood and how they relate to overall 'happiness' (although theirs is a more typical experience).

https://www.ted.com/talks/rufusgriscommalisavolkmannletsstalkparentinggtaboos/up-next?language=en

On the wider thread topic, as a late thirties, single-by-choice with no children woman, I do count my blessings every day that this is something that I want, and chose. It gave an incredible sense of liberation to realise after so many years of chasing the societal ideal that actually, no, it's not for me. I feel very happy with amazing friends and family and no need to compromise or have someone constantly 'with me'!

Goosefoot · 29/05/2019 02:59

The word happy is funny. I'm not sure that the pursuit of happiness is what actually makes people happy.

redcarbluecar · 29/05/2019 07:16

I think ‘happiness’ is a nebulous concept and a bit of an overused term. To me (single, child free, 40s), acceptance is more important - not of crap situations that arise, but of life and myself generally . This means trying not to be jealous, competitive or judgemental and not always longing for something else. It kind of works for me - life isn’t perfect but i’m not really sure that anyone’s is, so no reason to feel insecure.
As for whether single, child free women are happier....well I know people in fulfilling relationships with lovely family lives, and people who seem trapped and miserable with unsuitable people (a lot of this my perception of course). I guess people make choices and do the best they can with them, but I’ll be pleased if we’re moving towards a society which accepts that people are different and don’t all have to aspire to the same goals.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 29/05/2019 08:03

Also single, child free & 40s, having been in a bad relationship for most of my 30s...

Happiness is waking up in the morning & being glad to carry on with my life. It’s the sigh of contentment as I get home from a busy, fulfilling day at work, time with beloved friends or a trip to see family & close my front door, knowing that I have my space all to myself. It’s the satisfaction of learning & achieving, whether that’s a sport, a foreign language or a new work skill.
Even if I’m pissed off or unhappy about something, there’s an underlying happiness - no, joy - that’s always there because I’m living my life the way I want.

Steamedbroccoli · 29/05/2019 13:54

I have tried and failed to write coherently and this is a long mess, sorry. Just some of my rambling thoughts on this as it's touched a few nerves.

I think, as some others have said, it depends on the person, their situation, and also society's attitudes. Someone who doesn't want children and who is financially secure will I presume be happy. But it can be very difficult surviving, financially, as a single person.

I've always wanted children, it hasn't happened, and it's incredibly painful. I don't know how much of that pain is caused by feeling acutely aware that much of society sees childless women as worthless, or at least a bit of a "failure" and not very important to society. I know not everyone feels this way but it is a prevailing attitude in media, government policies, general public views.

I've had a strong maternal urge since I was very young but perhaps I would find things slightly less painful if there was a better attitude in society. I don't know.

It's fine being single and childless until things wrong. I know, as a DV survivor, being childless has made leaving very hard in terms of acessing longterm housing in particular, but simply that I feel like an outsider as many DV organisations highlight their help for women "and their children". Funding cuts have meant many DV services are more like child protection agencies. Of course children are a priority, it's just a shame that women aren't seen as deserving of help simply as women. Women are seen as mothers only and not women, worthy humans, in their own right.

I know I'm more sensitive because I so very much wanted children and also because my situation is not so great, but I do think this sort of attitude towards women, that they aren't "normal" for not having children contributes towards people going for and staying in unhappy family setups, why some people who don't want children have them - because of society attitudes. My mother never wanted marriage or children and felt pressured by family and society expectations.

I also wanted marriage, or at least a stable loving adult companion, but as I've got older (and experienced a long abusive relationship) I've reassessed my feelings and I've realised that I would be happy on my own, but only if there was a safety net....that doesn't (any longer, if ever?) exist. I suppose some places and people have that, a good family, friends, and neighbour support network, but often when you are alone and unwell or in some other bother, it's only your partner or spouse who will/can take you to hospital, do your shopping, make important calls, and all the other boring or unpleasant little chore like necessities.

If you aren't financially secure and in good health, it's hard to survive single and childless. I'm stuck with an abusive partner because I won't be able to access long-term housing without him. It's one of the reasons I semi-consciously overlooked red flags at the start, that and my biological clock ticking.

GraceMarks · 29/05/2019 14:25

Steamed you've touched on a few of the things that apply to me, and I just wanted to comment on the financial aspect, because I think there's a tendency to brush this under the carpet or minimise it. People will say "Oh, you don't know what being skint is until you've had kids!" But if you live alone and only have your own income to get by on, it can be very tough. You still have to pay rent/mortgage, council tax, utilities etc, not to mention home repairs, but you have to pay for it all yourself - there's nobody to split the costs with. You're unlikely to be eligible for any benefits or tax credits if you're childless, either. So if I had an accident or got ill, and I couldn't get to work under my own steam, I'd be screwed once my statutory period of sick pay was over, as there'd be nobody to help me, give me lifts, pay for the essentials etc. I was terrified last winter that I'd get that really bad flu that was going around because there would have been nobody to care for me or get any food in, and I could actually have been in trouble. Having to rely on staying healthy (and I do have some minor issues that I pray don't get any worse) because you literally can't afford to be ill is a stressful situation to face on your own.

OP posts:
TeiTetua · 29/05/2019 14:40

Nothing new to contribute here, but I was really struck by the contrast in tone between the messages from EmpressLesbianInChair, then Steamedbroccoli and GraceMarks.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 29/05/2019 15:59

Nothing new to contribute here, but I was really struck by the contrast in tone between the messages from EmpressLesbianInChair, then Steamedbroccoli and GraceMarks.

I think from my point of view, it's because I spent years dreaming of being where I am now - still can't quite believe it sometimes - and I know myself well enough to know I'm healthier & happier single, both mentally & physically.

I'm also very lucky to be healthy and have an amazing, close-knit friendship group, a big extended family and a job I love which also means I can afford to save.

I know it could all go tits up if I became ill or injured / when I get old. But I'd rather put what measures I can in place to deal with that if it happens, and carry on as I am, than sacrifice what I've got now.

dodgeballchamp · 29/05/2019 16:43

I am single and childfree, and I actively don't want marriage or to have children. Being single, however, is not necessarily a choice - while I'm happy being so, it's not that I don't want a relationship. I just haven't met anyone who wants one with me. The last few people I dated all decided after a few months they didn't want a relationship (looking back, there were red flags from the start and I'm now very glad I'm not in a relationship with any of them). I'm not looking to meet someone at the moment as I am genuinely happy being on my own – I'm living alone for the first time after house-sharing for years and finding it incredible.

However, I think my mindset has a lot to do with the fact I'm generally content. There have been setbacks over the years such as mental health issues and having a crap family, but ever since I was a kid, I've always just assumed that my life will be lived on my terms, supporting myself. It's just never really occurred to me that one day I'll couple up forever and have someone to halve the cost of living and pick up the slack if I'm ill/unable etc. I'm not sure why I think like this –I think the fact that marriage and kids never appealed has a lot to do with it, but I'm also a pessimist thanks to my dad (now NC) who drilled into me from childhood that you can't trust anyone and people will just screw you over. So I guess I've always had the mentality that you can only rely on yourself and now I genuinely think I'll be single forever, but I'm fine with it.

Despite the negatives, like the pessimism, crap dad and not having heaps of friends (a few good close ones, also single and childfree) I wouldn't trade my life for being married and having kids. The biggest thing for me is that I'm able to make myself happy on my terms and my schedule, and that's something I really don't want to lose

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