Women are happier without children or a spouse - Guardian article

[GraceMarks]

Sorry for the Guardian link, but:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert

Thoughts? I'm single and childless, and I think it's easier to be happy about that if it's a choice you've made for yourself, and not because you just didn't find anyone you wanted to settle down and start a family with.

But I find it interesting that studies seem to consistently conclude that women are better off being unmarried. On the Relationships board, women are always being urged to get married before they have children because otherwise they'll be left with no protection in the event of a split. Why then are we obliged to choose between happiness and security, assuming the studies are true?

As a side note, I quite like the sound of Paul Dolan!

I think it depends on a number of things, what your partner is like and how much money and support you have.

I’m on my second marriage and had a reasonably long time before my first and in between both to know that I’m happy on my own, and definitely happier than when I was with my first husband who was wrong for me, but I’m happier with my new dh because we are so happy, and I am also financially independent which I wasnt with my first dh.

Mine and DH's relationship would be happier on the day to day level as well without DS. Big picture, we'd hate not to have him, but we fall out with each other much more as a result of the tiredness and aggravation of dealing with a small child.

I can totally see that not having children would probably lead to a happier life and long term relationships can often drag on long after the magic has gone, out of inertia or codependency or the like. So I'm not at all surprised by the results. But I also think it glosses over the fact not everyone is chasing happiness as their biggest priority. I would much rather feel more fulfilled or satisfied than happier than I currently am. I don't need a huge amount of happiness (though I don't want to be unhappy), but if I'm bored I will be wondering what I've done with my life.

I think happiness is such a slippery concept, I really don't know how it can be reliably measured or meaningfully compared between people. I think I'm fairly happy being single and childless, but I've never really been in a situation where children were a possibility, so it didn't happen, and it's probably too late now. If I had been broody or had strong maternal instincts, I suppose I would have made more of an effort to seek out a partner. But I can't say that I would have been unhappy, or less happy, as a mother or wife. Likewise, I can't say that I'm happier than my married-with-kids friends - if anything, I'd say the financial stress of being on your own, not to mention the occasional loneliness, makes me significantly less content sometimes.

And whatever I might think as a feminist about women's value coming from her own achievements, there's still something a bit shit about being the one who hasn't been chosen. You still get pitying comments and people shooting sympathetic looks at you when you're the only person at the party who's there on their own.

The least happy I've ever been is when I had a partner.

The most is now I'm a single mum.

In the middle was when I was single and childless.

If the patriarchy and its handmaidenry don't support motherhood financially and socially , then being childless and single is preferable for women.

Western men do of course, have a terrible fertility rate.

Which could be a silver lining.

the financial stress of being on your own,

Being 'on your own' doesn't neccessarily mean you'll be financially stressed. Of course you may be, but then so may married people. Indeed, having children is one almost certain way to damage your finances, especially for women, who often feel obliged to give up or curtail their career as a result.

there's still something a bit shit about being the one who hasn't been chosen.

That's a strange way to put it. Why not say, the one who hasn't chosen (to be in a long-term relationship with a man)? After all, plenty of very ordinary and mediocre men and women manage to be be 'chosen' by other very ordinary and mediocre men and women. It's hardly some badge of honour.

You still get pitying comments and people shooting sympathetic looks at you when you're the only person at the party who's there on their own.

Honestly, as a single woman in her late 40s I simply haven't had that experience. And if I did, the solution would be obvious: I'd stop going to those 'parties'. Who wants to hang out with a bunch of smug marrieds who for all you know are miserable behind all the smugness?

IcedPurple I'm only sharing my own experiences, as other people on this thread have done, which might offer a different view. Obviously it's not as simple as "single happy, married unhappy", and we don't live in a vacuum outside of normal societal norms and expectations. Good for you if you've never wished your life had worked out differently - I sometimes have. Neither of us is wrong!

I honestly can't think of a single friend of mine who is single, apart from widowed ones. Are they mostly unhappy? They don't seem to be.
All my friends (myself included) who were happily single when younger, all got married years ago, and most of them still are.

I read that article earlier today and felt annoyed by it, I didn’t get how they evaluate “happiness”.

It’s no surprise though; the division of labour in the family home still remains deeply gendered, you could argue it’s good that women are acknowledging they are annoyed by it?

Personally - I had a child as a single woman at 38. The happiness and love I experience now in that relationship with my child exceeds anything I experienced before her arrival. Am I happier - yes yes yes.

I'm definitely happier on my own - but then I used to be married to a controlling arse who could neither cope with having to contribute financially to our liveihood nor with seeing me be professionally successful (or, indeed, with working insane hours in shit jobs - any way you put it, whatever I tried was just wrong).

Having said that, I do miss not being alone all the time and coming home at night to find another human being there. And I suspect I'd be happier if that were an optiin on terms that don't otherwise make me unhappy.

I work with lots of male married career types. Senior executives the lot of them. All with a wife and kids at home, all out for dinner with me more often than with them. And sleeping in hotel beds nearly as often as in their own. I've often said that I love them as my friends and colleagues but would be miserable and contemplating murder if I had to be their wife rather than a woman who gets to see them at their best - in the office. And yet, these men all seem happy.

I'm wondering if the happiness aspect basically just boils down to getting more out of the relationship than what you invest yourself, in some way. See above: for me, being married meant treading on eggshells and living in precarious financial circumstances (and a bunch of other stuff). To my male married colleagues, it basically means they get to do their thing but when the job gets tough and they need to unwind, someone's there to listen to them. Plus, they don't need to organise their own cleaner and nanny because they have a housekeeper wife for that.

I know I sound cynical. I don't mean to be. But it makes you wonder sometimes.

I'm not sure what " happy" means.......

Life is complex. I enjoy my own time, and am happy to take foreign and weekend city breaks on my own. I positively enjoy that. But I'm so glad I had children, even though that has proved to be some of the most testing of times too. Marriage has been a fucking nightmare at times, but on balance - I'm glad I stuck it out.

I'm home alone at present, as family have gone away camping. I didn't want to go. I'm absolutely content with that, but also realise that I like having family around - even if we are all in our own rooms doing our own thing. And i don't want to be old and alone.

What does happy even mean? Content, I guess? That's what it means for me, anyway.

On the Relationships board, women are always being urged to get married before they have children because otherwise they'll be left with no protection in the event of a split. Why then are we obliged to choose between happiness and security, assuming the studies are true?

I think being insecure tends to make people unhappy. But you can't have security without it involving obligations for people.

I'm definitely more content now than I've ever been. Of course, I was all loved up when first married, but we were just starting out, money was tight, I had a crappy job, so probably more highs & lows and less contentment. Then we went through years of infertility and that was just awful. Then I was ill and had very bad depression/anxiety for years after DD was born.

Now we have a 15 year old who is settled/doing well at school, we still have a mortgage but financially we're OK and can have some fun in life. None of our loved ones are seriously ill, and we both quite like our jobs. We also like our house and enjoy spending time together as a family.

That's a LOT to be thankful/happy/content about. I know how good we've got it right now. I often tell my friends that life is pretty boring/settled and I want it to stay that way. Does that count as happiness?

It doesn't surprise me, especially the marriage part. Look at how many women on here complain about their husband doing fucking nothing. How can you be happy when the person you are supposed to be part of a team with treats you like a servant? Of course people are only going to post when they have problems (who posts saying 'everything fine, nothing to see here'?) but it is entirely normalised in our culture.

Among my friends, I am regularly told how lucky I am that my husband does the dishes, sorts out dinner etc without being told. Is it lucky? It should just be normal! He's an adult too, he knows we need to eat and live free of complete filth.

I really really love my husband and he makes my life better. I married him not only because I love him, but also because I knew he wouldn't leave me to get on with everything by myself. If I had thought I'd be out buying Christmas presents for his mum or picking his pants off the floor every day, I wouldn't have bothered.

But I think so many women marry because we're pressured into it from day one. I know in my 20s I felt that if I wasn't in a relationship, I was nothing. I NEEDED a man. Wised up in my 30s and if I hadn't met my husband, I'd have been just as happy being single.

The problem is, I think, that women overlook massive amounts of flaws because they'd rather have anyone than be alone. That's where so much unhappiness comes in. There are so many decent, nice, intelligent, hard-working women who are chasing the small percentage of men who actually respect women and want to make a successful marriage.

No wonder there are so many miserable women.

I think most women are in pretty shit relationships. Most women do more than their fare share of housework and childcare and make more compromises than their male partner. I know lots of research shows that women who choose to be single are happier on average, and given the average relationship, that makes sense. Of course there will be individual women happier being married, but this is about averages.

Also with children, nearly all of my friends drifted into having kids. I once read someone saying you should not have kids unless you really really want them, and I think that is accurate. But many/most women do drift into being mothers, without any understanding of what that means. Although more women are also choosing not to have kids.

I know research shows that lesbians tend to have more equal relationships, so I am guessing this is why on average they tend to be happier.

1. How do they define and measure happiness?

1. Who ever claimed that personal was the goal of reproduction?

Personal = personal happiness

1. "cites evidence from the American Time Use Survey (ATUS), which compared levels of pleasure and misery in unmarried, married, divorced, separated and widowed individuals. The study found that levels of happiness reported by those who were married was higher than the unmarried, but only when their spouse was in the room. "

"Other studies have measured some financial and health benefits in being married for both men and women on average, which Dolan said could be attributed to higher incomes and emotional support, allowing married people to take risks and seek medical help."

"Women’s health was mostly unaffected by marriage, with middle-aged married women even being at higher risk of physical and mental conditions than their single counterparts."

It tells you right there in the article.

1. No one claimed that, it's just saying that women who have children are overall unhappier. No one said it was the goal or otherwise.

1. That’s not a definition. It looks like they’ve used two very subjective terms (pleasure and misery) to measure a third (happiness). What is happiness - scientifically defined? A particular balance of brain chemistry?

1. Maybe it’s the way I’m reading it... but it seems that the big surprise finding in the research is that marriage and babies don’t necessarily make women happier: well, whoever said they did? Why should they? Is it because we keep doing it? The desire to reproduce is pretty basic biology, it’s only very recently in human history that we had much choice about it - and similarly, it’s only very recently (in evolutionary terms) that personal happiness has been a consideration.

I saw this on Twitter

it said the comments were full of negative comments by men but when I click on the article, it doesn't seem to have comments set up?

I'm single and childfree and I think there's a huge amount of social pressure to get married and have children. I think that might be skewing judgement in some people's decisions. When I was in my 20s I just thought, oh well, you made your bed....but now I feel really sorry for people who regret marriage and children, that must be awful.

1. And if you go to that study, you can find the definition of happiness they used.

1. Again, no one is saying that babies are said to make women happier. They're just saying that they don't.

Single women are happy until they want a family. Thank said most men aren’t domesticated and even if you want to settle down living with a man can be quite unpleasant.

Single women are happy until they want a family.

Although for some of us, that want never kicks in and we just stay happy

"Single women are happy until they want a family"