Universal Credit hardship linked to prostitution.

[HelenaDove]

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/22/universal-credit-hardship-linked-to-prostitution

God, it’s like Angela’s Ashes

Is this news to you? Because sex workers have been telling people this for years.

If you are (rightly) upset about women in poverty selling sex, then please try to do something about poverty, rather than taking away their income.

It'll be all their own fault. That's how Tories think.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3592537-UK-Poverty-The-final-part-of-Philip-Alstons-UN-report-is-released

"If you are (rightly) upset about women in poverty selling sex, then please try to do something about poverty, rather than taking away their income."

It sounds like you're suggesting poverty-stricken women would be helped if more feminists encouraged more men to pay for sex because money is the greatest good and women's physical and mental health is an acceptable sacrifice.

Or if we came up with helpful initiatives that help women to escape from this desperate situation, no, sillage?

No, Orchidoptic, that's not what "rather than taking away their income" suggests.

No sillage, I am suggesting that if you have a problem with prostitution as a consequence of poverty then it would be far more productive to put your energies into reducing poverty.

"Rather than take away their income" suggests that taking measures to reduce prostitution not only harms sex workers, but does nothing to address the causes of survival sex work.

If you want to help sex workers, you need to listen.

I realise "saying listen to sex workers" is pretty pointless to most people who don't know any (or think they don't), so if anyone would like a sex workers perspective please feel free to pm.

'please try to do something about poverty, rather than taking away their income.'

Where did this comment come from? The op didn't say she wanted to make desperate women even more desperate?

Weird comment.

I'm sure the benefit cap and the 2 child rule are also huge drivers, both of which will affect women more than men.

There have been a couple of cases locally of men being charged with shoplifting after UC sanctions and delays, with women it is more hidden.

Well, the last sex worker I talked to face-to-face (lovely woman, mum to a child my DS was playing with in the local park) was quite clear she'd been trafficked into it as a young teen by a pimp who got her hooked on heroin after telling her it was cannabis. She'd got out of prostitution and was on methadone, and had very much not had the "happy hooker" experience.

If you're having the happy hooker experience, then I'm sure that's lovely for you, but women I've talked to and what I've read suggest that you're in the minority.

Also that phrase "sex worker" in my experience covers a multitude of experiences - from women (and men) who do actually sell sex, right through to their pimps. When people make a noise about representing sex workers' rights, often they turn out to be pimps rather than prostitutes.

Finally, if you have a defence of prostitution to make, I suggest you do it on thread, rather than trying to groom women into PM-ing you. That's just a bit fucking creepy, to be honest.

Fermats I have never heard any sex worker describe a pimp as a sex worker (unless that pimp also sells sex). It is a term which covers people who sell sex or sexual services (camming etc), but not people who 'manage' people who sell sex. The only people I have heard say pimps are sex workers are people who want to abolish sex work.

I am more than aware of the abuse that happens in this industry, and I have helped women exit the industry in the past. My point here is that measures which attempt to reduce sex work are ineffective and actually harm sex workers, whether we are happy in our jobs or not.

Also I feel I have to point out that I am not attempting to 'groom' people into anything, but I have found people are much happier to ask questions on PM on this site, largely because so many people here disaproove and are unwilling to listen.

In my experience, as a sex worker, people who make noise about defending and increasing sex workers rights are actually sex workers, or charities who work directly to improve sex workers circumstances.

I'm so not surprised by this .
IIRC this was discussed as a likely outcome of benefit cuts and sanctions during the MN Frothers threads in 10/11.

meg there was a thread about it in FWR about 6 months or so back, I think. Round about the time Frank Field raised the issue in parliament. Esther McVey's response was that women should get a job. Esther McVey is a great steaming pile of turd for saying that.

It's truly disgusting that these experiences are being ignored. I can't even describe how I felt watching Esther McVey completely dismiss these women.

There are so, so many problems with UC which can easily lead to these situations. The initial 5 week wait for any payment (oh but you can take out a loan say the government!!). The 2 child limit, the caps on childcare and the problems in trying to claim it back are a barrier to work for many. Also, here are links to another two major flaws in UC if anyone's interested -

Working single mothers won a high court case against the DWP after being left 100s or 1000s a year worse off, just because of their paydays 'clashing' with UC assessment periods, meaning their income is recorded twice in one month, leading to what the high court judge commented on as 'nonsensical situations' and leaving the women spiralling into debt. But UC are still doing this to people every single day, despite the court judgement -

Case Here

Also, old debts such as water arrears, tax credit overpayments, and fuel arrears are taken at the rate of up to 40% (yes 40%!!) of the money that a claimant has to live on a month. How can anyone survive on that??!!That's being left with £44 a week if a single person with no dependents, and some council tax still has to be paid out of that, gas and elec, food, travel, the basic phone UC require you to have. Even if you have children or work, £127 can still be taken off your other 'elements' such as housing money or children's money!!
Good explanation here

BoglingToAswad I agree that the best way to stop women being exploited through prostitution is to end poverty, but that's self evidently the longest of the long term goals. It's kind of up there with "why are you fighting for single sex spaces instead of putting your effort into ending male violence?" All well and good, but in the meantime we need interim safeguarding measures. An end to poverty, hunger, war, famine, and male violence, would indeed solve many feminist issues - to borrow a phrase from Contrapoints, "your Utopian pipe-dream is valid", and I think we all join you in working towards that goal. But I don't think promoting prostitution as a "job like any other", normalising the idea of women's bodies as commodities, gets us any closer to that. I doubt I will ever be able to see prostitution as a positive choice that should be celebrated and normalised, even if it is truly freely chosen. The promotion of women's bodies as commodities hurts all women, not just the women actually in prostitution. Our choices and actions don't live in a vacuum, and a man who is supported in his belief that he is entitled to buy sex, takes that misogyny with him into every other area of his life. Lot's of people would freely choose things which are currently illegal if they could, but we don't allow it because we understand that social responsibility means considering issues at a population level in the context of existing power dynamics, rather than in isolation at an individual level. I've also not personally seen anyone on this forum ever say that they think women in prostitution should be criminalised - quite the opposite in fact. The whole point of the Nordic model is to decriminalise women in prostitution and support them to exit it as easily as possible. That's not taking away their income, it's opening up access to income which doesn't threaten their dignity and safety. Not trying to strawman you, would very much like to understand this complex issue better, so please correct me if I've misunderstood your position.

@megletthesecond

Yes we did. I was on those threads too. And i remember that we were told we were scaremongering.

.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving The thing is - if ending poverty is the longest of the long term goals - then what exactly are women in poverty supposed to actually do to survive in the meantime?? Taking away their income so they face complete destitution isn't the answer, the real driver is the poverty. Do you understand that some women have absolutely nothing directly due to this government's austerity programme?? - no money for rent, for food and other basic necessities - they are not just a bit short on cash!!

littlemissmuffins No no, I get that, but what I'm not getting is where anyone's saying that we should leave these women without an income. The people I'm aware of who advocate for the Nordic model do so along side plans to support women to exit prostitution into other income streams, and are also campaigning for a minimum income for all. I don't think anyone's saying "abolish prostitution but then just ignore the women who now have no access at all to money", it's about making alternatives available while tackling the root cause. But in the mean time you also need to change attitudes because as long as there's demand there will be supply. Realistically if prostitution is made acceptable and available to all who want it, whilst only being provided those who freely choose to do so, the demand will increase exponentially whilst the supply will dwindle to almost nothing. Lots of men want to access prostitutes, hardly any women truly freely choose to work in prostitution. The mismatch between supply and demand here has, from what I've read, lead to dramatic increases in trafficking in the countries that have decriminalised prostitution. Prostitution is an industry born out of male sexual entitlement and I can't see how normalising and destigmatising that can be any kind of solution. Like I said before, supporting that kind of attitude hurts all women, not just those actively in prostitution. It makes me feel seriously sad to think of little boys and girls growing up in the Netherlands seeing women literally in shop windows, or seeing 2-for-1 deals on human beings in German megabrothels. No little girl should have to grow up in a society that thinks that's an acceptable future for her. No little boy should grow up believing that is an acceptable way to view and treat women.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving The problem with removing their incomes is that at the moment and likely for the forseeable future - we DON'T have that minimum income for all you speak of, and actual livable income streams are not available to all. What we do have is a completely broken safety net which is fast being dismantled. Sanctions, 5 week wait for any payment, huge rental and childcare costs, the persecution of the disabled, and also the assessment period and debt deductions problems I linked to above. Fall into one or two of these many traps and have no family support or savings?? A woman could easily find themselves without any income at all. It's THIS we have to stop. Actually, many women in prostitution are already working in minimum wage jobs but still cannot cover the cost of even basic living, I'm not talking gucci handbags here, I'm talking shelter, food, fuel, travel.

I didn't do it for any other reason than sheer need to stop an eviction notice after being put on Universal Credit and having a problem with the income recording on the first couple months (the court case posted above), I was 3 months in rent arrears caused directly by the system. I don't drink or use drugs, and I had never missed a rent payment in 15 years prior to being put on this system.

Much as I hated prostitution whilst in it and I am still scared daily of having to go down that road ever again - I am genuinely MORE SCARED of the DWP. Honestly. If you have never been in that position of relying on income tops ups to pay your rent and food then you might not know the fear I am talking about, but when the DWP literally have the power to destroy your whole life in their hands and you are always worrying about the next pitfall or mess-up, many many claimants live in fear like this. It really says something I think that I am more scared of the system, get more fear and anxiety thinking about it, than I do prostitution.

I am not saying the various academic rationales aren't important - they are. I'm saying that when it comes down to survival sex - I'd rather that than starve or become homeless. Would do almost anything to avoid it, but that's what I meant when I said that in the absence of a functioning social security net, taking away that last option with nothing in place to replace that income, isn't the answer. What most people don't realise is just quite how much the safety net system has been decimated.

I met women who were in the industry by choice and I respect that choice, I was in it for a different reason and as soon as I could I was out.

@littlemissmuffins Im sorry youve had to go through all that.

The fact you felt you had to point out that you dont drink or use drugs just shows how far the denigration of tenants and people on a low income has gone.

Every time there is a thread and/or posts from the usual suspects denigrating social housing tenants i feel that as a tenant i have to point out the same.

Massive thread on AIBU at the mo about how as women are equal to men (the system obviously didnt get this memo) they should always pay their way. Thread about women who cant even pay for basics due to UC struggles to get to page 2

Yep Its all equal now.

I TOTALLY get it. Risk losing a flat now and the likelihood of getting another one. Small to non existent.

Yes, mine is a private landlord. I couldn't risk letting the eviction go through, because the council wouldn't house us as I'd be classed as 'intentionally homeless' as not paid rent. They don't care that the whole problem was caused by UC directly, because UC doubled my wages, and therefore it cancelled my claim. They also took 40% of my payments for debts when I did get one payment. The landlord didn't care that I'd been a perfect tenant for 5 years in that property and in total of 15 years never having missed a rent payment before UC came in!!

And yes, it's almost impossible to find a landlord willing to rent to anyone on any kind of benefits.

Scary times, and yes, not many seem interested until it affects them.

Thanks for the well wishes, I am so glad that I was able to get out of that industry after getting enough to stop the eviction but it has left it's own scars and I am literally terrified of the system - even more than the sex industry - as I know how it fails people so often now.