AIBU to think it's ridiculous to spend money on facial fillers?

[mirrorballbabe]

There are a couple of mums at my school who have clearly had facial fillers. One of them is quite open about it and recommends the doctor to other mums, but a couple don't say anything but i can tell they've had work done. Obviously it's a choice, and they can spend money how they want, but am I being naive to be shocked that they'd be that insecure that they'd make semi-permanent alternations to their face?

I think the line will always be a little arbitrary.

Clearly on one side of the line I would put basic self-care. People who don't do it, or who don't take any notice at all of social expectations, are often (not always) people who may struggle with mental health. There is something about wanting to be presentable in a basic way that is attached to being mentally healthy.

On the other side of the line I would put things that are invasive and dangerous. Breast augmentation, liposuction, would be examples. The cost of these is also a factor.

That leaves a lot of middle ground. I think an important point though is that beauty standards are never really individual, what becomes normal affects the perceptions of everyone. If most women dye their hair, grey hair starts to be perceived as a sign you are a lot older than you are, that is how people "read" it. That creates pressure, even if it is just internal pressure, when you start to get grey hair in your late 20s or 30s. Or look at pubic hair removal - something we'd think has only private significance, but when I was a young woman living in a university residence I can tell you that girls felt a lot of pressure about it.

So, I think people have an interest in avoiding beauty trends that are very uncomfortable, invasive, time consuming, or expensive.

I would but fillers and botox in the very questionable end of that - they cost a lot and they are invasive and there can be health effects. Even hair dye or public hair removal are undesirable trends in my opinion, they represent a lot of time and money, and the latter can have undesirable physical effects.

But I don't know that i would say they cross a line. Myself, I wear make-up sometimes, I have dyed my hair in the past. But part of the latter in particular relates to feeling like I looked a lot older than I was. We're all effected by the beauty standards we see around us, and maybe it's worth talking about which ones are really negative for women.

I loooooooooove my fillers.

I had AWFUL deep "smile lines" that did not look smiley at all but made me look permanently unhappy.

I had fillers that were reversible and non permanent. The intention was to return my face to how it looked before I looked permanently miserable. One of the welcome effects is that it helps to regenerate collagen.

I also had a bit of filler in my lips because they were so thin I couldn't really wear lipstick.

I am very sure that its not obvious because at least three people who see me a lot have raised issues about how can people have fillers and I said I have and they just about fell of their chairs. Agreed that I indeed did not have deep lines but it didn't look like this was because of fillers.

I think there is indeed very significant risks if someone goes to some unqualified to get these things done - but done well by a qualified person I have found it to be great.

You sound quite judgemental and to have an incredibly simplistic way of what the issues are surrounding the pressure on women to look good.

I'm shocked that you're too thick to think this through yourself.

And yes - I'm also pointing you towards AIBU unless you want to raise the level of your analysis....

I personally agree with you that every woman who has fillers is betraying the sisterhood by helping to raise the bar of normal a bit higher for everyone

I don't use fillers but I find that a ridiculous statement. You can see very well looking round you that women come in all varieties of sizes and shapes and variation of what they do or don't. I also personally think feminists get worked up about "raising the bar for everyone" whereas everyone else just gets on with their lives , either playing along or ignoring it as they choose.

I also think there is a hugely patronising streak in a certain type of feminism which assumes that any effort to be anything other than au natural wearing unisex hemp garments is due to brain washing to please a man other than pleasing oneself.

DpWm

It is beautiful to love yourself
Ruining your face is the opposite of loving yourself.

I recognize people have their own reasons for cosmetic enhancements (or lack thereof) and unless those enhancements are demonstrably harmful I see no reason to question another person's cosmetic choices.

I don't wear base/foundation, concealer, or powder etc., my cystic acne is on display - some people think that ruins my face.

But... opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they usually smell like shit.

I have no interest whatsoever in what any one else thinks of that

I think it's fine to care what people think. We're human and it's normal to care how we're perceived. I doubt any of us would bother getting fillers or our hair dyed if we lived on a dessert island alone.

Ha! Desert not dessert! Thought dessert island sounds tasty!

I also think there is a hugely patronising streak in a certain type of feminism which assumes that any effort to be anything other than au natural wearing unisex hemp garments is due to brain washing to please a man other than pleasing oneself.

It's nothing to do necessarily with pleasing a man. That's a very reductive view of the social argument.
The idea is that standards of beauty have a very significant socialised element. That is true even if you are doing something "for yourself". If you get those duck lips, to please yourself, it's not because somehow you are just a duck-lip loving person. It's because you have been socialised by your environment to see them as attractive. Fashion is similar. One decade everyone likes skinny jeans, another, the same people like bell-bottoms. It's in part because they are told it is fashionable, but it's also because the eye, your sense of proportion and what looks right, is affected by what you see around you. Or with colouring grey hair, if only ancient elderly ladies have it, the brain tends to interpret people with grey hair as being older than they might really be.

I also think there is a hugely patronising streak in a certain type of feminism which assumes that any effort to be anything other than au natural wearing unisex hemp garments is due to brain washing to please a man other than pleasing oneself.

Did you actually read the rest of my post? Because I don’t know how the fuck you managed to take that from it.

It's nothing to do necessarily with pleasing a man. That's a very reductive view of the social argument

I know it was reductive. My point is the there is a certain streak of feminism which is extremely patronising towards any effort to be anything other than au natural wearing unisex hemp garments is due to brain washing as opposed to not wanting to wear ugly clothes. It doesn't particularly matter whether the definition of what is ugly is pure socialisation - the very fact of choosing something not ugly is criticised.

Whenever cosmetics, or cosmetic surgery (facial fillers being a pretty minor kind) get discussed, it's like entering a minefield. We have to think about why women and not men do this stuff almost exclusively, and what that says about how our society views women and men, and then if there's sexism around, what a good feminist response to it would be. And then there's the slippery question of "choice"--how much of it do we really have, and if we say we're doing something of our own free will, does that make it automatically valid and not open to question?

This has gone less than two full pages, and already there have been some harsh words. Well, the personal is political in this instance. (I'm not taking sides.)

YANBU. Anything unnatural is horrid.

Look at the state of Simon Cowell these days. Waste of money alright.

TeiTetua Well put. It's interesting that there's so much respectful debate and agreement around other feminist issues but we get so defensive and positional around this one.

For me, I know I alter my image to be socially acceptable (limited to shaving my legs and plucking my beard chin) and I'm ok with this. There've been many years when I've refused to do this for what I'd describe as feminist reasons, but I found it takes guts and strength to keep this up and I'm taking a break from it this year and am enjoying looking 'acceptable' again. Life's hard enough without setting myself that challenge at the moment.

I think it's true to say that most men just don't have to make decisions around wether or not to change their appearance with dyes, fillers or razors (ok, maybe some of them have to shave their face for work, but not half their body!). As women do, I'd say it's a feminist issue. But while I'd love to live in a society where women were free to go about without being so aware of their appearance I think it's good to be understanding and uncritical of those of us that buy into it for an easy life.

LassOfFyvie
See what happens when you stop dying your hair.

I'm a bit surprised to see responses like these here. Maybe the massive body of feminist works on the subject of women's bodies is a figment of my imagination? Or is wrong?

I think it’s unreasonable to judge people on how they spend their money, BUT I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think fillers are ridiculous.

My personal preference is to think lip injections look ridiculous and who knows that problems putting shit into your face may cause in 20 years. But that’s my choice, I just feel sad for these (in many cases) young pretty women looking like fish.

Anything that helps reinforce a subset of sterotypes about women will tend to reinforce all the Sterotypes sadly. Women spend their time and money on beauty equates in many mens minds as women are shallow. And presssure to conform in that way, which does exist (and may Be class and age dependent) is sexist

But we all live one life, we need to be part of society. And pretty things are not fundamentally wrong. Women should not have to regress to man to be considred technically competent

So that to me explains the diversity of opinion

I do get privately judgemental when people are not aware that their choices are partly affected by the patriarchical society we live in

YABU
it's really non of your business how people choose to alter their face or spend their money. Why would you even give this headspace?

People are free to spend their money on whatever they wish and we all have different insecurities about various imperfections in our bodies and faces.
These insecurities make it more likely for people, especially women, to chase various beauty treatments and spend a lot of time and money on them. The only ones that seem to benefit the most are cosmetic companies, but humans have always felt the desire to 'look beautiful' and resorted to all sorts of methods for millennia to enhance their appearance.

There seems to be a lot of pressure, internally and externally, to conform to these beauty ideals in some way. People who rarely experience such pressure and desire to engage in cosmetic rituals are usually autistic. It appears neurotypicals in general find it incredibly hard to resist social conditioning. Which makes me wonder just how much of the various issues highlighted / campaigned about by feminists are actually achievable in reality.

That said, I tend to love natural beauty and minimal to no cosmetic alterations. I can see the appeal in getting a nice hair style or funky hair colour, a bit of eyeliner and lipstick to look and feel your best. I feel more iffy about injecting things into faces and body parts and other complicated procedures. There's so much potential for things to go wrong and we don't know what long-term effects it has on our bodies. Botox makes people look so wooden and non-expressive. There's hideous infections from women injecting silicone into their butt. The fishy pout from fillers looks very unattractive to me, but maybe there's enough people who do find it attractive to keep it going. There were cases of HIV infection from those vampire treatments, whatever they are called. It just seems women are willing to risk more and more of their health and well-being with little to no self reflection or scepticism. I guess we all succumb to these idealised notions of beauty in different ways, and some more than others.

I also don't understand the mantra of 'don't blame women, blame society!'. Obviously women shouldn't be harassed or individually criticised or mocked for their personal choices. I wouldn't go up to a woman with extreme lip fillers and tell her she looked bad. But I can still critique the practice of it in general.
Society is literally made up of women and men. How exactly does 'society change its expectations'? The only way society changes is when more and more women become less preoccupied with beauty and that gradually causes a shift in society as a whole. Society doesn't exist independently of women - we are a part of it and our collective actions, behaviours and attitudes feeds back into a loop into the sort of society we see around us. Businesses capitalise and help propagate such group behaviour because it is profitable due to the constant demand.
Feminism, imo, helps to self reflect and understand women and men's roles in shaping the societies we live in. Society only changes when individual behaviours are applied on a collective scale.

I'm into fashion, wear make up and I've coloured my hair in the past. ( I like it grey but used to have Sun-In habit.) Yeah there have been a few occasions when I've felt patronised on here. I still think the normalisation of medical procedures for non medical issues is something of a sea change.

But I believe in your body your face (for adults) and hope I would never ridicule anyone. In fact if you're trying to earn a living in certain industries it may well feel like the only option. What is ridiculous - and disturbing I think - is the pressure women are under, not only to look young but also not to look tired, cross or miserable.

I had them to soften really deep marionette lines that made my face look saggy and miserable, it's made a huge difference and I'm glad I got them!

YANBU and I also find that sort of thing ridiculous. I'm not a fan of the third-wave feminist argument that whatever a woman chooses to do is a good thing if she's chosen it and it makes her feel good.

Of course in a free society everyone should be allowed to alter their bodies in whatever way they want - but none of it happens in a vacuum. Our culture prizes youthful looks in women to an absurd degree. It's harmful, because everyone gets older, it's ordinary and natural and shouldn't be seen as something terrible.

People who rarely experience such pressure and desire to engage in cosmetic rituals are usually autistic.

This is interesting. I'm autistic and really don't notice this pressure much of the time. Take shaving as an example - I just don't do it. I'm aware that some people might look at me and think 'gross, she has body hair' but I see no reason why I should give a fuck what people like that think. The people who equate it to not washing or whatever are, frankly, just ignorant and plain wrong, so why pay any attention to them?

As has been said above, the 'line' about what is and is not acceptable is arbitrary.

As a woman in her (very) late 40s, I dye my hair, have had dental work, wear make up nearly every day and have a skin-care regime to hopefully keep my skin looking 'youthful' (!) I've never had fillers, firstly because luckily my skin is still pretty good, and secondly, I've never seen a case where they look good. Maybe fillers are a bit like make up in that you only notice them when there's too much of them, but when I look at all those women with LA face I just think they'd have been better off to leave well enough alone.

But that's just my opinion. I don't think there's anything particularly anti-feminist about fillers, although it's true that men rarely get them. Still, as I said above I wear make up, which men almost never do, so who am I to judge?

I think all women should be allowed to spend their money as they please, including on how they look.
However I think all advertising should be banned which isn't 100% truthful and realistic, and people should not be shown with treatments, beyond basic hygiene, to sell anything other than the treatment they are advertising.
Yes a boob job job will make your boobs bigger, but that's all, so ditch anything in the advert that implies it will make you generally more beautiful, happier, or succesful.

Like those perfume ads which imply you will be transported to a Mediterranean villa and meet a tall dark man who will whisk you off your feet, or be able to drive a motorbike turning heads wherever you go. No. You'll smell better. Maybe. And that's all they should be able to say.
Won't happen of course.

Wtf are botox lips?
Nobody can tell ive had facial fillers. But people say 'ooh you look nice' when ive just had them done.As a PP has said, people nearly fall out of their chair when they find out I have had procedures. Nobody knows I have botox either (I'm a model for students so it's very cheap). It makes me look better and feel more confident. As for pleasing men, I'm a lesbian. I like to look my best, it doesn't cost much, It's easy and it works. If its crossing a line for some, fair enough. To me the line is a bit higher up (id never have cosmetic surgery for example but if people want to have it i dont judge them).

Crumbscrumbs I think botox lips means the big lips which seems to be the fashion at the moment the women and who have them aren't trying to hide that they've had them done. It seems very socially accepted. I suppose because of kardishians and insta influencers. I do think it puts a lot of pressure on girls and women though and I don't think that is a good thing.