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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I get to vote for a GC woman in the Euros!

34 replies

Freespeecher · 09/05/2019 12:13

And as Claire Fox tops the Brexit Party list in the North West she should be a shoo-in.

Thing is, apart from her, I can't think of any other candidates who meet the description.

What a crazy world we're living in now. Maybe it'll take a huge political shakeup (of which the Euros will be a part) to wipe some parties out (Change UK? Lib Dems? I'd say the Greens but it's not impossible that they become the main party of the Left if enough disaffected Labour types move across to them) so that others can rise in their place that look out for minority interests in a common-sense way without losing themselves down an ideologically woke blind alley.

(Well that's the hope but the timing isn't the best - Corbyn's just announced Labour will fight the Euros on the fields of Social Justice).

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TheInebriati · 09/05/2019 12:23
BettyDuMonde · 09/05/2019 12:32

I wouldn’t touch a Farage-party with someone else’s barge pole.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-nhs-might-have-to-be-replaced-by-private-health-insurance-9988904.html

Nige’s vision for the NHS would have left me with a dead 6 year old daughter - or facing homelessness due to medical bankruptcy.
Possibly both, seeing as death doesn’t necessarily clear a medical debt.

Lichtie · 09/05/2019 12:45

Isn't she the one that stood up for Gary Glitters 'right' to download child porn... And you think voting for this person is a good idea?

JamB4cream · 09/05/2019 12:49

I'm definitely going to spoil my ballot for the euro elections with gc slogans, I couldn't bring myself to do it for the locals, but there's nothing to lose in the euros

Freespeecher · 09/05/2019 12:52

She was also part of the RCP in the 80s which made unwise comments about the Brighton bombing which she should (and will) be asked about, but I like her work on the Moral Maze and on Spiked.

(It'll all be character assassination between now and the elections though as it's easier to do that than argue in favour of an increasingly federal Europe).

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TheInebriati · 09/05/2019 12:53

I'm going in with a sticker this time, the local elections were embarrassing with me scratching away in the booth. Those pencils are noisy.

I'm not convinced that UKIP are actually gender critical. They're just old fashioned sexists as far as I can see.

Freespeecher · 09/05/2019 12:58

Ah, but Claire Fox is Brexit Party.

Might I suggest a rollerball pen? Silent, and no risk of falling off the ballot paper (or, heaven forfend, being removed).

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BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 09/05/2019 13:23

Yeah I felt like a bit of a nutter banging away with my pencil in the voting booth to write my slogan!

Maybe I’ll purchase some stickers from posie on Saturday

Not voting for Farages shower, regardless of their GC stance

They are no friends to women, or indeed anyone but themselves

ErrolTheDragon · 09/05/2019 13:27

I'm not convinced that UKIP are actually gender critical. They're just old fashioned sexists as far as I can see.

Yup

Ah, but Claire Fox is Brexit Party.

Is there a significant difference apart from less embarrassing baggage?

I said on another thread, I see the EU election as a single-issue matter, and that spoiling ballots is an own goal. I intend to vote for the most clearly Remainer candidate available.

I live in the Northwest and am not at all pleased by the distinct prospect that Fox may become my elected representative.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claire_Fox

DuMondeB · 09/05/2019 13:37

I don’t think she’ll do as well as you think - I just looked up the complete candidate list and while the NW are currently 3 Lab/2 Cons/3 former Kippers, pro Brexit voters have lots of choice (UKIP, Brexit, Tommy Robinson, English Democrats, and Tory/Labour). Fox is already being criticised in Warrington for refusing to apologise for old comments about the Warrington IRA bombing.

Will be interesting as to how it all plays out, especially as MEPs can’t actually do anything to enact or revoke Brexit - decisions have to be made in U.K. parliament. Trafford council just saw a massive victory for Labour, so it seems that voters are able to sort local issues from national ones.

MilletSentToForceIt · 09/05/2019 13:53

It will be a sticker from me with a NONE scrawled across just in case anyone is unsure.

Although having seen my MILs postal vote form, which unfolded to near the whole length of her dining table, it might have to be several stickers, or even a poster!

Genderfreelass · 09/05/2019 13:57

The Europeans elections to me are about brexit rather than GC issues. I am not a fan of the EU, nothing to do with xenophobia as my husband is an EU national who is also against the EU.

Freespeecher · 09/05/2019 13:58

MilletSentToForceIt
Plenty of space for an introduction, essay and bibliography in that case.

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Manderleyagain · 09/05/2019 14:02

The European elections will be about Brexit for me too.

Private Eye did a character assassination of Clair Fox in the recent issue. It read as pretty unfair to me. But I agree with OP I quite like her. Don't always agree with her at all, but she is capable of hearing different points of view and is v much for freedom of speech which few people are willing to defend at the moment.

multivac · 09/05/2019 14:03

Claire Fox? Seriously?

FFS.

Freespeecher · 09/05/2019 14:48

Manderleyagain

Yes, I read that. David Aaronovitch had written a piece in the Times that was so similar that I initially thought it was a cut and paste job.

Point taken from other posters regarding the vote being split but I think being top of the list should mean she makes it. No MEPs of any party can do much but she's an interesting individual who has more to say than most.

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DuMondeB · 09/05/2019 15:05

I just came across a YouTube video of Mark Collett (former prominent BNP activist) slagging off Farage. It’s been up for about 10 days and has 34,000 views and 900 comments accusing Farage of selling out the working classes.

It’s long so I will listen to some of it while scraping wallpaper - not linking because - yuk, BNP, but it’s called ‘The Truth about Nigel Farage and the Brexit Party’. I’m trying to look at stuff from all angles, inspired by the horrors of Evergreen College, but it’s hard to fight my instinct to go ‘Collett? Urgh, not watching that ever!’

Will be interesting to see how the UKIP/Brexit voting numbers go, there is possibly a big split, with Farage seen as the posh Brexit option.

Freespeecher · 09/05/2019 16:39

It's hard to call - I suspect Farage's new party will pull in all sorts of people who'd never have voted UKIP but the jury's out on whether he'll do well in, say, Sunderland.

Looking beyond the elections, and assuming (though it's not a given) that the Brexit Party replaces the Tories as the party of the Right, the question is then who'll form the opposition? The reheated Blairites of Change UK, the Greens/Radicals or one of the Labour Party (Corbyn version) or the Labour Party (Tom Watson version)?

And will any of them have the policies to not only keep enough of the working class onside to win a majority or to at the very least acknowledge the legitimate concerns around the whole Trans debate.

Interesting times etc etc.

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Lamaha · 09/05/2019 17:26

I was out walking around a lake the other day when a jogger ran past us. She passed us three times as we walked and we had a little joke running a marathon! I'm trying! she replied.
he next day a flyer for the Green Party Ireland came through the letterbox and it is her.
I'd be eager to vote for her -- just because! So I looked up the Green Party's ideas and... sigh. This is what they want to do:

www.greenparty.ie/policies/justice-reproductive-rights-gender-recognition

" Introduce a requirement for provision of gender-neutral public toilet facilities.
Add protection for transgender and intersex people by introducing hate crime legislation.
The Green Party supports the amendment of the Gender Recognition Act 2015 to include recognition of non-binary and non-gendered individuals, and to facilitate gender recognition for people under the age of 18. We believe that further policies need to be implemented to support transgender and intersex people in Ireland, including better education to reduce transphobic bullying in schools."

Lamaha · 09/05/2019 17:29

I'd love to write her and let her know why I cannot support the Green Party, expressly because of these issues. I'll have to give it a good think.

DuMondeB · 09/05/2019 18:20

Ok, I survived my Mark Collett video experience. Caught no cooties.

He’s definitely grown up since he was on that ‘Young Nazi and Proud’ tv show. He comes across as someone who is well- informed, and considered in his opinions. He unflinchingly describes himself as a Nationalist. He speaks proudly of his involvement with the BNP, which was at the time of their peak success as a party, with numerous councillors.

He starts his video with what he describes as Farage’s good points, probably about ten minutes of material. He has some interesting thoughts on propaganda, and clearly uses these techniques himself, including in the video itself. He emphasises NF’s importance in getting the referendum in the first place and also making it more acceptable t0 talk about immigration.
Then he moves on to critique Farage. It’s very weird hearing criticism of Farage from the other side (I’ve always considered myself to be a leftie, but Liberal left, not authoritarian left) and some of it I agree with - Collett describes Brexit Party as a vanity project for Farage, a single issue, single use project. He points out that UKIP are actually a proper party, with members and elected officials and points out that it’s the work of ordinary activists that has created these successes and he sees parallels with the way the BNP worked 15-20 years ago. He calls the Brexit Party a ‘toothless tiger’.

I agree with this, and actually, I think Change U.K. are in a similar position - current Brexit MEPs were elected, in part, due to the work of UKIP volunteers.
Same with the MPs who have founded change - technically for Parliament we vote for individuals but most of us select those individuals on party lines and if you vote for someone only to have them cross the floor, it will anger many of the voters, and enrage party members who lost finger nails in snappy letterboxes, delivering leaflets on their day off.

The rest of the argument is calling out Farage for not being right enough. Farage’s anti European/pro commonwealth immigration comments are dismissed as ridiculous (unsurprisingly a former BNP person would rather live next to a white Scandinavia family than a Bangladeshi family) and he is criticised for having no political friends other than Trump, and that’s now over. Collett accuses Farage of ‘punching right’ (see, that’s one of those propaganda moments, he’s adapting the SJW ‘punching up’ phrase) and slagging off other British right wingers, including current UKIP leader. Farage is accused of deliberately sabotaging UKIP in order to further his own profile (‘leaving the party before the job was done’) and being far more interested in his own legend than in actual politics. Farage is accused of being an establishment shill (paraphrasing) and the Brexit party is described as a ‘pressure valve’ - a way for angry people to vote that seems meaningful but achieves nothing.

Collett read out a memo supposedly written by a UKIP MEP who accuses Farage of deliberately scuppering Brexit in a closed door meeting 2 days before the leave deadline - Farage is accused of doing this to force the U.K. to participate in the EU elections - giving Farage an opportunity to be relevant and high profile again.
The Brexit Party is just a grift.

I won’t be voting for either of them, but if I were a proper right winger (not a centrist accused of being a right winger or a lexiteer or whatever else gets dismissed as right wing nowadays) or someone who was anti establishment protest voting I would be sticking with UKIP.

Perhaps the vote being split between UKIP and Brexit will actually tell us lots about why people voted leave in the referendum?

BlackForestCake · 09/05/2019 18:59

Didn't Farage leave UKIP because it had been taken over by people like Collett? Not surprising they are not keen on him.

Freespeecher · 09/05/2019 18:59

On the subject of 'punching right' (or at least attacking those on the right) I heard a rumour that, in the event of a GE, Farage was considering standing against Boris Johnson - not to beat him but to split the vote so Boris loses, and the Tories lose their Brexiteer figurehead.

Seems far-fetched, but the source was the usually well-balanced James Forsyth of the Speccie.

On the flipside I do wonder who'll be the first figure on the left (or even the centre) to offer an option that avoids the excesses of the woke.

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DuMondeB · 09/05/2019 20:11

A few years back Nige claimed he ‘smashed the BNP’ by pinching their voters, so it’s a bit rich to then leave UKIP because of all the BNP types involved with the party 😂

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/699471/Farage-destroyed-far-right-Britain-sports-new-moustache/amp

Apparently UK decided to swell their posho eurosceptic southern ranks by courting disenfranchised working class, northern BNP voters circa 2009 and were actively campaigning that way in a by-election in 2011: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/14/bnp-ukip-voters-politics-immigration

BNP had its best GE in 2010: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party_election_results

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/01/what-killed-bnp

Farage has long courted BNP voters, but quietly - Batten has just given up the pretence. I believe that officially, no ex BNP members are (were?) allowed in UKIP - but it was just a declaration, no checks, so the rule only really excludes high profile BNP activists and former councillors

www.thesun.co.uk/news/7881952/nigel-farage-warns-marching-with-tommy-robinson-turn-ukip-into-bnp/

The big question is, are there enough of the other type of UKIP voters (eurosceptics that aren’t wedded to the conservatives) to make the Brexit Party a success - I’m not sure there is, not up north, anyway.

Farage is unlikely to pick up any Lexiteers - not with all his posh, establishment mates standing and no actual grassroots party doing the dirty work.

DuMondeB · 09/05/2019 20:27

The Farage/Boris story makes sense when you consider Farage’s enjoyment of the spotlight and yes, it would be a massive blow to the Tories. Think he would’ve done better using UKIP as a vehicle for that though - there is less exploitable difference between the palatable Brexit Party and a massive Brexiteer Tory.
Boris doesn’t really live in his constituency, he lives in Emily Thornberry’s. It was just a convenient greater London seat with a retiring candidate that Boris was shuffled into after he lost his last mayoral bid.
The previous occupant was elevated to the lords a couple of years later.
That’s the kind of thing a UKIP Farage could use as leverage, man of the people, meet you in the pub etc etc.

I really think Farage’s end game is a seat in the lords. He gets the ermine and the glory without needing that pesky electoral success.

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