BBC radio 4 9 am Gender in sport- the long view

[horseymum]

Just heard a trailer for this. Described people who were 'classified' as female at birth but matured as men. Will be an interesting listen on the way to work.

So sick of the “won’t be overrun” argument. McKinnon makes that argument all the time. Just a single incident makes it unfair. While Blair is in goal, a woman goalkeeper sits on the bench instead. This woman matters. While Hannah Mouncey plays for the Darebin Falcons, a woman sits on the bench instead. This woman matters. While Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood clean up all the sprint events in New England, Selina Soule comes third. This girl matters.

It doesn’t matter whether women’s sport will be “overrun”, see a gradual change, or only affect a few, because even if it’s only a few, these women and girls matter.

Right up until the last few minutes they were discussing an intersex athlete and another who was thought to be intersex/male, both from the 1930s, and comparing them to a current male-born transgender person. Only right at the end did they bring in the issue of athletes like Caster Semenya, who is the current equivalent of the 1930s athletes they were discussing. At which point it was acknowledged that the inclusion of intersex athletes is completely different from allowing male-born transgender athletes to compete against women.

The programme would have been a lot better if they had made it clear from the start that intersex and trans are two completely different issues.

I felt this programme was a gentle introduction to this complex argument.
The general public have no idea they’re a huge difference between Intersex and Trans athletes and I’m glad it was at the centre of this programme. It needs clearing up so TAs stop using Intersex people to justify their rhetoric.

I also hugely enjoyed hearing Blair talk on the radio. I’m sure the other listeners did too.

Don't normally post articles referencing individuals but as Blair made the point that born males have no physical advantages after transition and takes it on themselves to 'educate' children in terms of identifying men and women, thought this was an interesting article in terms of physical differences and similarities between the sexes shown in group photos.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/transgender-footballer-who-now-plays-14110451

I started to listen halfway in (the radio was on downstairs & I was upstairs). I had to turn it off, as they were using the term "gender" when they meant "sex."

I must say, because I missed the beginning, I was surprised to hear that one of the speakers was a MtF transwoman - she sounded like a man, and was talking about children "making mistakes" in "misgendering" her. Until I realised she was a transwoman, I was misgendering her in my hearing of her. So it's hard to blame the children ...

The general public have no idea they’re a huge difference between Intersex and Trans athletes and I’m glad it was at the centre of this programme.

It wasn't, though. The distinction between the two issues wasn't made until right at the end, almost as an afterthought. I don't think this would have been clear to anyone who didn't already understand the difference between the two issues.

Ugh, I missed the conflation of intersex with transgender.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

I feel so sorry for women such as Caster Semenya, when there's all this other inaccurate stuff flying around.

The programme completely conflated intersex, trans and biological women who don't fit a feminine stereotype in terms of height, build and looks. That was the whole point of it! To make out that there is nothing to see here and that "we" are all in the same boat in terms of how we are treated (reducing it all down to the pressure to look feminine). All part of the BBC agenda to normalise trans women in female spaces.

Conflation of terms is a real issue. People need to especially realise that sex and gender are not synonyms these days nor is gender a polite word for sex.

So many times people say gender when they mean sex and this probably confuses what the real issues are for a lot of people.

The use of the Stella Walsh and Helen Stevens story was an exercise in conflation, but actually had fuck all to do with trans women. The build up of the story is that they were both unusually tall and well built, not "feminine", but incredibly fast and on a par with men in terms of sprinting ability. Both suffered being called ugly and "men". They both had accusations of being frauds and of actually being men, having to go through humiliating physical exams to prove they were women. The big reveal: Stevens was a woman, Walsh was "intersex" (not sure what gene anomaly was present, but she was still a woman). Both suffered sexism AS WOMEN. Neither was a trans woman. So what did this story have to do with transwomen in women's sport? Nothing, but it's a good bit of obfuscation for the uninitiated.

Here:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0004l75#play

How can Blair be against self id when it's ALWAYS self id? It's just that some manage to get their self id state sanctioned.

There is another long view.

The idea that Transwomen are women is dead in the water.

The controversy is bringing together the science in a convincing way that the public can see for themselves.

Once transwomen are excluded from female competitions - and I believe they will - then it would be nonsensical to say 'transwomen are women, except in sport". No, transwomen are never women. They are men.

It is a spectacular own-goal by transwomen - to risk the achievements of the trans lobby (by regulatory and policy capture).

The edifice has crumbled.

Thank you to those selfish transwomen who sacrificed the notion that TWAW for their own personal gratification and glory.

Watch and wait for their medals and records to be expunged from the books.

Once transwomen are excluded from female competitions - and I believe they will - then it would be nonsensical to say 'transwomen are women, except in sport". No, transwomen are never women. They are men

Just as - "transmen are men" except if they are aristocratic and want to inherit their father's title.

Specific exclusion under the GRA.

It rather lets the cat out of the bag, I always think.

I am listening now.

It's incredibly frustrating listening to a man asking someone who is clearly male what is fair about women's sports. At least a woman had a chance to reply.

To me it falls into extraordinary claims needing extraordinary evidence. It's so obvious that men can't become women, the only way they have been accepted in women's sports is because of male power.

To me it falls into extraordinary claims needing extraordinary evidence

All of it does. And they don't have the evidence. So why are we entertaining it?

Well I'm not! And I suspect you aren't either.

We just need to keep pointing out it's nonsense as often as possible.

It did not sound the clearest explanations on either side though I was not paying attention all the way through. Fielding dd's auditory confusion.

Using Blair (an amateur, low level team sports player) and Sotherton (an Olympic medal winning athlete), meant that neither could legitimately dispute the other's claims about how things work in their sports.

Blair was able to bluster that team sports are "different", because it's not all about the strength and skill of one person.

This is why the programme was nonsense and a smoke and mirrors exercise. The premise of the programme was about 2 Olympian sprinters 100 years ago; Kelly Sotherton is an Olympian. The issue is about how the ICC will allow transwomen to compete in women's categories in 2020. Blair had no authority to speak on any of these issues. They needed a transwoman, would-be Olympian on the other side of the debate justifying why they should be able to compete against women.

Well I'm not! And I suspect you aren't either.

I know

I meant we as in society. And yes, you're right, we do.

Can anyone view videos in facebook?

If you look at bbc news feed in facebook 16 hours ago...

"The sporting community is divided over how to include transgender athletes. Todat we look at the science and ask if its possible to have a level playing field."

The comments are very telling!!

I can assume the lean of the video :(

There i a level playing field - everyone competes as their sex. Why has that gone off the table?

is, in case that wasn't clear

KneelJustKneel
I got that feed as well. I was puzzled as the interviewer was American and then followed the links and found it was on: "BBC's Cut Through the Noise" which is aimed at the US and only on facebook. But yes, the comments were telling! I didn't plod through them all, but a skim showed that people just didn't buy it.

Its just not unbiased output from the BBC is it? Its taken as fact that transwomen need to be accepted as women and how to make that happen is the challenge...