BBC radio 4 9 am Gender in sport- the long view

[horseymum]

Just heard a trailer for this. Described people who were 'classified' as female at birth but matured as men. Will be an interesting listen on the way to work.

Children get the gender wrong but its a chance for "education." Shudder.

Snap.

Back to 100 years ago. Offensive remarks at the time about the masculinity/femininity of those competitors and whether they should be called miss or mr. Gender tests were demanded by the Polish team of Helen Walsh. Which amounted to groping genitals to check they were a woman.

In Blair's mind they are a woman
In law, Blair is a woman.

Hmmm, what element is possibly missing to make you an actual woman?

How about Biology?

Outcome of the test was the Helen Stevens was a woman.

Someone from Loughborough Uni (Gemma Wick). Testing today is about testosterone analysis. This is not a set in stone level. Have to live as a woman for at least a year. Blair is ok with this.

What about self ID? Blair does not agree with this, esp re sport.

Kelly S. Thinks you should live as a woman and have the relevant testosterone level for 4 years (an Olympic cycle).

Gemma Wick- limited research on this issue. 12 month rule based on testosterone alone, other physical effects of being born a man are not yet quantified.

Blair doesn't think it is unfair for transgender women in women sport. It won't be overrun. I feel like a woman in my mind, we suffer prejudice blah blah. Kelly adamant that it will erode women's sport.

Kelly Sutherton says more than once, in more than one way, that she is not an expert or a scientist, and that Blair is studying the subject and has more facts, but still KS disagrees. Her choice of words strikes me as conciliatory.

Just been shouting at the radio! Kids clearly say it as it is without having to have a filter.

Now it's on to intersex / disorders of sexual development. Caster Semenya. "Completely different issue" than trans.

Back to 100 years ago and suggestion that Stella Walsh may have been inter sex.

Now taking about Caster Semenya. Does trans issue apply to intersex. Gemma Wick says they are conflated and they are morally and ethically different issues. Kelly says she supports Caster. Very different to be born and raised a woman and trans.

Blair thinks Caster S is a miracle of physiology and nobody should question her testosterone level. Commentary about it being straight sexism about looks and suspicion being cast on those not feminine enough.

Kelly - stands by her view it's unfair, but there is sexism about looks in sport.

Blair - no such thing as fairness in sport. Need more research.

THE END.

Blair - testosterone is not the thing we should focus on as a differentiator?

I WONDER WHY BLAIR WOULD THINK THIS?

Well that was better than I thought it would be. It is the BBC after all.

Kelley was allowed to say exactly what she thought, without being shouted down by an aggressive hurty-feelings person.

*Kelly

I was struck by Kelly S's comment that when she was training and competing, it was enough to scrape her hair back and go, but female athletes today are supposed to look good, as in using make-up. She used the expression "for the 'gram" as in looking good enough for photos on Instagram. I wasn't aware of those pressures.

So that feels like a pointless load of crap attempting to say it's all about looks and nobody should be discriminated against or hurtful things written about them because they aren't feminine enough. Totally skimming over the actual issue of the decimation of female sport for biological females. Trying to guilt us into acquiescence and sympathy with the trans athletes by making it all about image sexism.

And that's R4's version of balanced reporting.

Blair teaches kids that what they know and see is wrong.

Blair uses children correctly identifying Blair's body as male, as a teaching opportunity.

I am no fan of adults who lie to children, and adults who broach topics which are not age appropriate.

Everyone on this programme was very respectful of the other's views. But that kind of makes be wary, because it's the slow lull into false security, isn't it. It was just all a bit insipid. A casual listener wouldn't think there was a problem from listening to that. By linking it to an event from 100 years ago, I feel like they were trying to say "there's nothing new here, nothing to see here"; and by making it all about looks sexism, I feel like they were trying to create a false and sympathetic link between women and trans women - that we are all discriminated against because of looks and the sports part (physical strength and testosterone advantage) are secondary issues.

Didn’t expect much - Freedland ex editor of the Guardian and this is the BBC. Kelly did well but did say several times ‘I am not an expert’ - nor is Blair but they didn’t feel the need to deprecate themselves like this. Note that Kelly is an Olympic gold medalist, Blair plays for the university team. Marginally better overall than it might have been but still usual biased stuff.

I thought it was good - clear in intersex/trans difference. I would also like to speak up for Blair here. She listened respectfully, debated face to face with Kelly (a star). Of course, that should be standard behaviour but when there are so many examples where people actually try to prevent a contrary view being expressed, Blair does deserve some acknowledgement

I thought it was interesting. It was good in that the BBC allowed a woman athlete to put the gender critical view without silencing her - and that's likely to be a first. It was also good to hear a trans athlete put forward their beliefs that their male physique / biology doesn't give them the slightest advantage over women in sport. Shame it was on radio not TV.

It was woolly because it tried to explore / conflate a historical story - I think Freedland thought that this was a fascinating contrast - while in fact it was a confusing mishmash of old newspaper accounts from 80 years ago which took away from the discussion rather than added insight.

The scientist who thinks babies are 'assigned a sex at birth' and believes that biology is far more complicated than two sexes is probably a self identified scientist rather than a qualified one.

Thanks for the info and commentary. Sad sad situation.

Blair teaches kids that what they know and see is wrong.
In the real world the next statement should be “so Blair doesn’t get to teach kids anything”. But in this right on, can’t offend the laydeeez world, Blair goes round teaching kids dangerous bs.

Very good point Tawny about the inherent sexism of trying to make out that a woman who competed at the highest level and some kid who plays football at uni are equally qualified to talk about this. Never mind that football and athletics are two different disciplines.