Trans Train

[BessyK]

As the mother of a ROGD teen i'd like to share this documentary from Sweden (translated into English).
The Trans Train www.svtplay.se/video/22035454/uppdrag-granskning/uppdrag-granskning-sasong-20-the-trans-train?start=auto&tab=2019

I haven’t watched the video yet but will do later, but on the issue of consent from children I don’t think it is possible for such life changing surgery.

I got a tattoo at 18. Legally I was an adult, and able to consent. I was sure I would never regret it. Reader, I regret it. Thankfully I had it done somewhere very easy to hide, so my regret is pretty mild, but I had no idea at 18 of how much growing up I still had to do.

We don’t let children get tattoos, even though any regret from a child getting a tattoo would be far less disastrous than the regret a lot of these young women will feel.

Appalling that any medical professionals take part in this. What next, liposuction and laxatives as a treatment for anorexia?

Yes Prion it was sarcasm (sorry if not clear I’m autistic and don’t always put my words across very well). There is such a fear that these children will kill themselves if they aren’t given what they (think they) want immediately. All ramped up, IMO, by social media, isn’t there advice online about what buzzwords to say to get them to agree to treatment? I can’t find it now but I also saw a picture to this effect on another thread recently, the scales with waiting on one side (with the risk of suicide) and action with only minor possible issues on the other. Horrific.

Watching, waiting, THERAPY is needed :( help for these children to become comfortable in their own skin again, in time, because puberty is a bitch for any child. And autism assessment for those not already diagnosed - I feel strongly about this given my own history of gender confusion (that I grew out of).

Totally agree about the anorexia comparison too, if an underweight teenager thought they needed to be thinner we would say Yep you’re right here’s some drugs to make it happen.

I agree, @PegLegAntoine - and I would add that we need to move rapidly towards a society where we don't pigeon-hole people based on their preferences, whether that be their choice of toys, favourite colours, hobby, clothing, career etc etc.

As long as we have things that are labelled 'Boys' stuff' and Girls' stuff', people of one sex who like things labelled for the other sex will feel that they are pigeonholed by their choices, and that society may well be judging them based on that.

A boy who likes pink, skirts, dolls may well fear criticism and teasing for being a boy who likes girl stuff - which will cause anxiety, fear and maybe depression - whereas identifying as trans will allow them to be seen as brave and inspirational, and to enjoy freely their choice of colours/clothing etc, whilst shutting down any negativity with the hammer of the TERF accusation.

If we moved away from the toxic stereotyping of things for men/boys and things for women/girls to a society where we didn't label things or pigeonhole people based on their choice of colour/clothing/hobby/career, I suspect we would have a happier society, and one where most people could be comfortable in their own skin, and didn't feel the need to transition.

Sametti got her breasts removed too.

I think she also had a hysterectomy. I nearly cried at that point, I was so sad for both her and for 'Mika'.
It is just ethically unjustifiable, that this is being done, especially at the speed it is being done.
The legislative changes Sweden is apparently planning are horrific, too; lowering the minimum age to 12, bottom surgery at fifteen without parental permission. Why? Why does this have to happen so fast? Why is there no decent psychological help?

Personally I did and do suffer from horrible body dysmorphia, but I've learned at times to be grateful for having a body that works, and also to be a lot less focussed on appearances. There is more to life (nearly all of it, in fact) than what you look like.

StrangeLookingParasite
It's notoriously difficult to get proper mental help in Sweden. Especially if you got trauma, like a lot of these children and teenagers do. I have PTSD myself and have tried to get proper help from someone who actually understands trauma for years. I have been referred to therapists who don't really have a clue. There just isn't enough competence around that here.

Another thing that makes me angry is that the "Feminist" party (Feminist Initiative) supports self-ID and removing the age limit for it. They are no feminists.

Thanks for this OP. Great documentary.

Therapy has been getting short shrift in many countries for a while now. There seems to have been a movement away from seeing mental or emotional problems as things therapy can help, and toward seeing them as physical illnesses that can be helped best with pills or other interventions.

Part of this is an immediate gratification culture, part the desire to remove stigma, part - a big part - about money. But I have wondered if part of the problem is that therapy seems less "scientific" to a lot of people, who increasingly are only able to think in those terms. I've read some really interesting Jungian stuff on trans issues, and I think the way they see it as part of a kind of narrative of a persons life, with meaning, is actually very helpful - that is why we grow through things like literature, myth, etc. And yet often the only thing we offer people is a kind of medicalised way of thinking about their problems.

I'm midway through watching and a thought just occurred to me (well, many have but I will come back to the others once I've finished).

It's much mooted that these kids will commit suicide if they don't transition. Does anyone else think there will be a spike in teen suicides from kids who do transition then realise this hasn't been the "cure" for their issues and they are now stuck in a steralised, medically induced body for the rest of their lives?

If the importance or need of 'bottom surgery' has decreased as much as it has/ with many choosing not to do this as the genitals don't define the gender, then why the hell are they not espousing the same in regards to hormones for children. Wear a skirt, change your name, but permanently and irrecoverably changing your body chemistry at a time it's only developing does seem very wrong. I wonder if this is going to be looked back on in the future with the same contempt and disgust we have for the practise of lobotomising people to modify their behaviour?

Placemarking. I started watching this a couple of days ago. I feel it's a braver piece and more honest than has been yet tackled in the uk.

The high % of ptsd and other mh or neurodiverse conditions among the girls is so significant.

Also, I simply can't keep the power of you tube and social media and easier access to screens out of my head when I see the start of the rise in data around 2009. iPads and internet and touchscreen phones have become commonplace in society and for kids in that time.

Does anyone else think there will be a spike in teen suicides from kids who do transition then realise this hasn't been the "cure" for their issues and they are now stuck in a steralised, medically induced body for the rest of their lives?

I would think this will be highly likely. It will probably really hit home around early 30's as their friends settle down and have children.

This film shows why all this is absolutely a feminist issue.

At least one transman has already killed themselves because their transition:

www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/10/03/belgian-trans-man-helped-to-die-after-failed-gender-reassignment-operations/

One group of doctors created the conditions of suffering then another group of doctors were on hand to provide the solution - death.

I remember that story. So sad.

There's been a trans man in the news here talking about her regret as she knows she did it to escape the psychological impact of the abuse from her father as a child. Then realised she looked like her father. And that it wasn't the answer.

I can't stop thinking about this. It's really horrific. They can't detransition, they can't go back to how they were. And they can't talk about it because the trans community will vilify them. Horrific.

*They can detransition, but they can't go back to how they were.

Parents that love and support but do not affirm their child's trans identity please don't feel isolated. Seek advice and support from Transgender trend, Parents of ROGD kids and 4th Wave Now.

One group of doctors created the conditions of suffering then another group of doctors were on hand to provide the solution - death.

I really can't help but think there is a relationship between these things.

If the importance or need of 'bottom surgery' has decreased as much as it has/ with many choosing not to do this as the genitals don't define the gender, then why the hell are they not espousing the same in regards to hormones for children.

I think there are really distinct populations involved in this. People who are actually suffering old fashioned gender dysphoria seem like the least common ones. Others are the grown males for whom it is a sexual fetish, or a power thing. These guys seem to be the ones who often don't care about the most invasive stuff, though that's not always the case. Then the teen girls, who want the hormones because for tem it is often about escaping a female body. And then parents transing their young kids - I think that is largely about the parents, and they seem to invest a lot in the who medical transition element. I'd say the kids getting into queer theory and claiming to be non-binary and stuff are another group too, maybe less likely than the others to seek out interventions.

I also think comfort with these physical interventions is affected by the increasing commonality of other cosmetic medical interventions.

I also think comfort with these physical interventions is affected by the increasing commonality of other cosmetic medical interventions.

Do you mean the acceptance of vanity cosmetic surgery? Because if so then I totally agree, and have been saying this for a while. Don't like how something looks? Pump it up, straighten it, enlarge it, reduce it. It's socially acceptable and aimed at the masses these days. It doesn't take much of a leap to end up here does it?

"I really can't help but think there is a relationship between these things."

Doctors forgetting that their role is to heal and to ease suffering. Not create it or cause death.

There seems to be some pressure on the Swedish government to investigate this.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3573435-Swedish-national-council-of-medical-ethics-recommends-Swedish-government-investigates-treatment-of-GD-youth-Hormone-treatment-suspended

Everyone should see this. It’s distressing but very important. All MPs should watch it.

Does anybody else out there feel its spooky that there is a "never-say-no" policy for the sterilization of teenage women who are "suffering", i.e. not-conforming?

We need to have a serious talk about what it means to suffer in rich countries. Why is it suddenly wrong for teenagers to suffer, and dang, is that really suffering? Why when they say they are suffering, we feel the need to give in to their superficial delusions instead of something more profound?

sarawhitting

I think suffering has always been one of the basic questions we have to deal with as human beings. It seems to impact us mentally and psychology in so many ways, and not all negative ways, either.

Culturally, we seem to have come to a place where we have no structure, or often no words, to think about suffering and meaning.