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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cisgender - the new teen insult

97 replies

FannyCann · 24/04/2019 09:28

Cisgender is just so boring. I feel so sorry for teen girls these days, my youngest DD is 18 and they both seem to have just been ahead of this breaking wave. What a social minefield these young children are having to pick their way through all the while being indoctrinated from above. It's interesting the mother notes that her daughter has received very little information in her PHSE lessons on how to have a heterosexual relationship.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6952453/Why-teenage-girl-picked-NOT-gay-trans.html

OP posts:
Lamaha · 25/04/2019 12:58

I think there is pressure in some middle class circles to be tolerant in a way that is different to working classes. The accusation of being a bigot almost holds more power, and this very much is a new thing

Yes to all of this. And not just middle class -- all of the woke celebrity class.
Look at Chalize Theron. Does anyone really believe that her son Jackson would have wanted to be a girl is he had grown up in a poor family in South Africa? Just no.
It's woke liberal attitudes including strict gender-neutral upbringing, unfortunately that fosters these ideas.
I am maybe old fashioned but I shall continue to buy cute dresses for my one-year-old granddaughter! We don't have to be anal about it.

LarryGreysonsDoor · 25/04/2019 13:15

I think that raising children in a gender neutral way is the opposite of what is likely to make them trans.
It’s the idea that to play in a certain way makes you male or female seems to be the thing that makes trans.

juneau · 25/04/2019 13:22

I think there is pressure in some middle class circles to be tolerant in a way that is different to working classes. The accusation of being a bigot almost holds more power, and this very much is a new thing.

I can't speak about the WC experience, but I agree re: tolerance and the MC and I've seen how it can lead to a lack of critical thinking.
I think a lot of people are so afraid of being called bigoted or TERFs that they don't actually think about the issues and the wider implications of swallowing this ideology whole.

I got into a heated conversation with a MC mum who (had admittedly had rather a lot to drink), but she was spouting on about how she'd rather have a live DC who was on puberty-blocking drugs than a DC who'd committed suicide. She didn't want to debate the issues at all - about how puberty blocking drugs can lead to infertility, about whether a suicidal DC was really in a position to make radical, unilateral and far-reaching decisions about their health, about the fact that many DC who go through puberty actually come out the other side happy in their adult body, and about the slippery slope that puberty-blocking drugs can be towards gender reassignment. Nope - she'd just swallowed whole the argument of vocal, angry trans activists and was sticking her fingers in her ears and going 'La, la, la' to any reasonable counter arguments. It was genuinely chilling and this woman doesn't even have a trans DC!

Lamaha · 25/04/2019 13:33

Yes, it's the hard-line dogma that I think is the problem. Trying too hard to make sure the kids are gender neutral, forcing it as an ideology on kids. I don't think it's all that big a deal; we can be relaxed about it. Just let kids be kids. If a girl prefers dolls, so what.

GraceMarks · 25/04/2019 13:38

I think I would have been so vulnerable to all this stuff if it had been around when I was a teen. I hated being a girl - puberty gave me acne and a moustache instead of breasts and a waist, my periods were a nightmare, and my idea of hell was having to put on a tiny little gym skirt and play netball. I was regularly mistaken for a boy until my mid teens! I did used to get very intense (but secret) crushes on older girls and female teachers which mostly involved gazing hopelessly at them across the playground or classroom and feeling something in between love and hate for them.

Looking back, I can see that I didn't sexually desire them, I just desperately wanted to be like them so that I would fit in. But it was only when I was a bit older that I really understood that - at the time, I was worried that I might be a lesbian, and in the early 90s it was still very difficult to be gay.

I think that if 12-year-old me was at school now, with her hairy chin and body hatred and difficult feelings about other women, she would be all over the possibility that she might really be a boy instead of just a fairly visually unappealing girl. I feel so bad for girls today who are being pushed into this sort of thinking by adults who ought to be safeguarding them.

RedToothBrush · 25/04/2019 13:58

So, are identity politics mainly a middle class ideology because surely it began as a means of helping more marginalised groups of people. Has it been co-opted in a patronising (or patriarchal) fashion by the middle class liberal/left? It probably has given the stance of The Guardian and politicians.

No identity politics exists on both the left and right. Identity politics on the right centres more on religious conservatism and nationalism, whereas as on the left it has become about race and sexuality.

You also have middle class and working class identity thrown into the mix.

Middle class identity has included a group which has always been about improving conditions for the poor. It was a significant force in Victorian politics and did drive the Suffragettes too. However it didn't really include working class voices in a more meaningful way until post WWI initially when there was a demand for more power in return for fighting the war, and this was even more important post WW2 when there was essentially a labour shortage.

I don't think you can say its therefore been co-opted. More that it's lost sight of its purpose. Its middle class guilt and self interest which has become centred over the interests of the truly vulnerable. What it's done has become a throw back to earlier manifestations of Victorian notions of improving society rather than looking after those who are more vulnerable. It reflects a decline in work class power and influence.

I don't believe it a coincidence that its occurred as we have had a decline in manufacturing and an increase in computerisation. We have whole communities who some might describe as 'surplus to requirements' or because they are not connected via transport or have family ties which make it difficult to move to areas where there is manual labour, they are viewed as a 'burden'. The whole 'undeserving poor' narrative is positively victorian in nature. And it is not restricted to the right anymore. Labour have retained policies which perpetuate the narrative by choice, in order to retain middle class voters.

This middle class motivation to improve society, in some cases, is almost religious in its ferver to 'convert' uneducated working class types and make them behave in a more moralistic way. The accusation of 'bigot' isn't dissimilar to the idea of 'sinners'.

It very much looks down on the working class. There isn't a sense of seeing certain groups as equal humans. Just groups that must be 'improved' or 'corrected'. And that's about imposing power on others and maintaining status.

There is no sense of balancing competing views or interests. Instead there is a hierarchy of importance of what is deemed the most important values to society. This has thrown society off balance and in the process it has lost sight of how institutions have worked for all, because its created an effect of silencing voices which say things which point out difficult issues in practice (cos life is complex) because it happens to challenge this rather simplistic ideology.

It leads to a cover up of failures of the original intent, because of this belief that all criticism is an attack the ideology and trying to destroy it rather than viewing it as a more honest attempt to show weaknesses with a view actually solving societial problems by acknowledging the real life experience of other groups.

This centring is demonstrated in various ways. You can see it, in how you get sections of the middle class having to 'prove' their marginalised status or have to 'prove' they understand the marginalised most through competitive wokeness. Its like religious purity and piety in nature. The most religious should have more power and influence and disbelievers should be shunned.

This all is at the expense of listening and giving proper voice to those who are marginalised.

It's all driven by economic change and polarisation. Which has driven more economic inequality and even further political polarisation.

No one is getting a grip of it, because both sides view it as a competition in which power can be 'won' . The reality is more complex and is grounded in the fact that unless you actively seek to destroy huge parts of society by nefarious means, a functioning progressive society needs to work together rather than working against itself. There isn't a competition to be 'won' at all. Progressive societies exist at times where there is political stability rather than political polarisation for a reason. If you are focusing your energy on proving the other side wrong, you aren't using that energy to cooperate and move forward together.

Ask yourself why those who are currently being most villianised are those moderates who are arguing its a balancing act, rather than the polar opposite political opinion. The moderates pose a greater threat to religious insanity, because reason and practicality is real the enemy of fanaticism.

And if you are wondering why the far right are currently doing so well in this country, you'd do well to understand the dynamics of the above...

Lamaha · 25/04/2019 15:07

I think it's not only a middle-class and celebrity woke movement: it's a first world (UK, US, Europe and Australia) thing. Kids in the Caribbean, India and Africa and I assume elsewhere don't wonder if they are boys or girls. They accept their biological sex even though they grow up in very gendered roles.
Yes, there might be problems later on escaping those roles (particularly in India) but the agony of being "born in the wrong body", seems just not to exist there. Suicide rates might be high in some of those countries, but "wrong body" syndrome is not the reason.
I know, because I grew up/have lived in those regions (well, two of them), and in spite of childhood in an extremely gendered society I still found my own way. Such a childhood is not a life sentence. People there just really either roll their eyes at transideology, or have never heard of it and would find it ridiculous if they did.

Goosefoot · 25/04/2019 15:43

I think identity politics come out of neoliberal individualism, and are absolutely more middle than working class.

There was a study done in the US not long ago looking at which groups supported the idea of political correctness, and which were concerned by it. It was actually quite a small group that was supportive, and it was the group that was the most wealthy, most educated, and most white, who identified as progressives.

There is something about this set of perspectives that appeals to that group.

RedToothBrush · 25/04/2019 15:49

I think it's not only a middle-class and celebrity woke movement: it's a first world (UK, US, Europe and Australia) thing.

Of course it is.

It's intent is noble. It's about 'saving the world'.

But it's ridiculously short sighted and blinkered.

Is it a coincidence that we've gone from adopting poor children from developing countries to transing children.

Who is the centre of this?

Is it the child?

Or is it the adult celebrity?

None of them ever give up their careers to focus on giving their kids some dignity and privacy from the worlds media.

I grow cynical about it all because of the total lack of self awareness.

How different is it from dodgy tele evangelism?

RedToothBrush · 25/04/2019 15:55

There is something about this set of perspectives that appeals to that group.

Power and status.

It always comes back to power and status.

And in terms of children trying to make their first steps in the adult world that's actually quite important. It's about establishing themselves in the 'pecking order'. No one actively wants to be at the bottom. Thus those from more aspirational backgrounds, might well be more drawn to it than those from backgrounds which are more restricted and have a culture of more 'not forgetting where you come from'.

ZenNudist · 25/04/2019 16:23

My teacher friends telling me about this come from schools where there is desperate poverty and certainly not middle class. Trans is still something the kids latch onto. I think WC / MC dichotomy is a red herring. Maybe it's metropolitan vs provincial? Or just wherever the idea takes hold.

I think trans as a teen fad has a shelf life. I can't see it being so exciting and noo in 5 years time. The kids will be into something else. Plus by then the medical horror stories will be coming out.

LarryGreysonsDoor · 25/04/2019 16:31

Kids in the Caribbean, India and Africa and I assume elsewhere don't wonder if they are boys or girls.

India is an exception. There are a number of trans people in India. They tend to live in one house in a community. It’s a fairly standard and tolerated way of life there.
However I’ve only ever seen MtF.

Lamaha · 25/04/2019 16:40

In India, you have the Hijras, which are officially recognised as a third sex and play a special role in India culture. But they are really a special case, and mostly located in urban centres such as Mumbai. You won't find them in the rural areas of Tamil Nadu, for instance.

Echobelly · 25/04/2019 16:47

I’ll take that article with a big pinch of salt, being the DM – I still rather doubt life is getting hard for children who identify as their biological sex.

But certainly I feel I am going to have to have a word with DD before she starts secondary in September. She is a (gasp!) short-haired girl, who is right now perfectly happy that she is a girl who likes having short hair, and who I fear will both face both bullying for ‘being trans/wanting to be a boy’ on this account and, on the other hand, have some people telling her she’s obviously trans and that’s sooo cool. I’ve already discussed it a little with her and will encourage her to talk to me about any discussions she has, whether positive or negative, about her gender/sexuality.

BTW, Re Hijras and other cultures where men are allowed to live as women, I think it often has more to do with being more socially acceptable way of being gay than any feeling of being in the wrong body. There's also a FtM tradition in Albania that appears to be more pragmatic in origin than anything about identity en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_sworn_virgins

IdaBWells · 25/04/2019 17:26

Is seems primarily a way for men's sexuality (whatever that looks like) to be socially acceptable. So many cultures don't even seem to acknowledge lesbians. I think mainly because men can't conceive of it as something real as it's too great a threat to their ego.

IdaBWells · 25/04/2019 17:37

Christians and especially orthodox Christians are demonized on here and generally by the so-called "educated west" as rigid, uneducated and ignorant. At least that what I have found as a Catholic. Our intellectual tradition is ignored. However Catholics have a robust critique of trans nonsense and definitely don't teach it in the schools - at least here in the US. Christian theology says the soul and body are one entity. It's impossible to have a brain and body that don't match as you are created as one being which is embodied. Also we are all completely equal and precious in God's sight. Our beliefs have often been mocked and attacked so we don't expect to be listened to or taken seriously. However, my three teens have a solid since of self and my 18 and 15 year old girls have no emotional problems or confusion about their identity. They are strong female leaders but not right wing ideologues.

LangCleg · 25/04/2019 17:41

It's about 'saving the world'.

Or, in a more blunt way of putting it - it's about the Victorian notion of improving the poor.

I also think the middle classes have a dynamic in which they capture resources. Resources (thanks to billionaire transhumanists and well-funded LGB orgs needing a new market/purpose) have suddenly been made available - so the middle classes rush to capture them before anyone else gets a look in.

That said, the collateral damage will fall on those at the very bottom who will also get caught up in the contagion due to vulnerability but won't have the cultural or social capital to recover when things go wrong - for example, Looked After children. These will be the people really up the creek without a paddle when this house of cards inevitably comes crashing down.

3timeslucky · 25/04/2019 18:14

@IdaBWells Roman Catholicism has done a pretty "robust critique" of women's rights and roles, not to mention their "critique" of gay men and women and have made those views pretty clear and vocally. I've yet to hear a similarly "robust critique" of transactivists.

I think you'll also find that the brain is part of the body and that that fact is widely accepted in both science and religion. A brain and a soul are not the same thing. One is a physical entity, and one is a belief based on faith. AFAIK there's never been a suggestion within the RC church that ones sex and/or gender ID lies within ones soul, so the unity of body and soul (or indeed the question of existence of a soul) is entirely irrelevant in this context.

Lamaha · 25/04/2019 18:40

I personally think that a strong and solid spiritual grounding within the arms of ANY religion, independent of any dogma or bigotry, or even without a formal religion of any kind, is the best armour against this nonsense.
I don't expect others to agree with me. But it would be interesting to see a study on this.

LarryGreysonsDoor · 25/04/2019 18:54

I think the exact opposite.
Religion is all about faith, accepting what you are told, what you believe to be true without any evidence.

Science is your friend here.

IdaBWells · 25/04/2019 19:56

I guess I am not very good at explaining myself. Catholicism believes in faith and reason = therefore science. 3tineslucky I agree with you, the brain and body are not separate entities, that is what I was trying to express. We are not parts, but one whole being. For us that includes a soul. But our body is us, it is not some sort of container in a Gnostic sense. I guess my point is all the Catholic women I know are gender-crtical because our theology (even if we are not able to articulate it very clearly, such as myself) gives us a grounding in not only reason and science but also a concept of a complete person with a celebration, love and respect of the body. If we reject our embodiness (if that is a word) it can't help us make sense of ourselves. I guess it's clear that our bodies are not the problem. It has to be a culture that is wrong.

Lamaha · 25/04/2019 20:18

Religion is all about faith, accepting what you are told, what you believe to be true without any evidence.
But spirituality, which is the core of every religion worthy of the name, is about finding a deep, strong anchor within oneself, which prevents disruption. It does not contradict science in any way. You don't need to be told anything; it's about experience. The version of religion you are referring to is a misunderstanding.

RedToothBrush · 25/04/2019 20:34

Christians and especially orthodox Christians are demonized on here and generally by the so-called "educated west" as rigid, uneducated and ignorant.

There is lots in various religious teachings (not just Christianity) which actually makes sense on a scientific level. Many rules on food make sense with regards to a time where there wasn't food hygiene standards for example.

And there's much merit to the idea of not borrowing nor lending money too. (somewhat more impractical in today's society, but certainly needs reflection in today's ultra capitalist and neo-liberal society)

I certainly think their are elements to religion which contain huge amounts of wisdom that in modern society we could do well to learn from rather than merely dismiss as crap.

There's also a lot of stuff that's wrong with religious teachings (which I might add, isn't necessarily religious at all, but a reflection of subsequent political and cultural influences that has been passed down and become attached to religion). These things all tend to be where fantacism overtakes the more moderate ideas and teachings.

We dismiss the ideas and views of others without consideration at our peril and to our detriment.

Even though I fundamential disagree with certain groups, that doesn't mean I can't learn something meaningful and positive from them.

Goosefoot · 26/04/2019 00:51

"Religion is all about faith, accepting what you are told, what you believe to be true without any evidence. "

This is just factually untrue. There is nothing about religion as a topic, or the concept of religious faith, that implies these things. Many religions have very well-developed intellectual traditions which can be rigorous and demanding compared to what most people are used to seeing these days in academia.

That so many people take it as a given that this sort of characterisation is of course true is a real failure of the education system.

Goosefoot · 26/04/2019 00:59

"I think you'll also find that the brain is part of the body and that that fact is widely accepted in both science and religion. A brain and a soul are not the same thing. One is a physical entity, and one is a belief based on faith. AFAIK there's never been a suggestion within the RC church that ones sex and/or gender ID lies within ones soul, so the unity of body and soul (or indeed the question of existence of a soul) is entirely irrelevant in this context."

No, it really is entirely relevant. The point in Catholicism is that you can't really separate the body and soul because they are one thing. The soul is simply the form of the body, in an almost mathematical sense. To say they are separable would be a bit like saying the length of a square is separate from the square.

From that perspective maleness and femaleness are found in the soul as well as the body. You could take the view that some sort of medical condition could exist where there was a problem with the body around its sex, but it would never be a matter of some kind of mismatch where a male or female essence existed apart from a male or female body.

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