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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cisgender - the new teen insult

97 replies

FannyCann · 24/04/2019 09:28

Cisgender is just so boring. I feel so sorry for teen girls these days, my youngest DD is 18 and they both seem to have just been ahead of this breaking wave. What a social minefield these young children are having to pick their way through all the while being indoctrinated from above. It's interesting the mother notes that her daughter has received very little information in her PHSE lessons on how to have a heterosexual relationship.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6952453/Why-teenage-girl-picked-NOT-gay-trans.html

OP posts:
Micaela64 · 24/04/2019 19:10

Only in middle class schools I can ensure you, as a teaching assistant who's worked in many skilled.

What are middle class parents doing to encourage all this? I know some of you won't want to hear it but I do wonder if gender neutral parenting is something of a gateway to this stuff. Most working class kids who've been brought up and encouraged to be stereotypical boys boys and girls girls just aren't into this trans stuff. It just isn't a thing in those schools, same with schools with large number of ethnic minorities.

You can disagree with me if you want but if you do so I'd like to hear your own thoughts on why it's mostly middle class white kids who get sucked into this stuff.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 24/04/2019 19:21

Hmm I think lots of kids just take it all with a pinch of salt though. DS(12) is as liberal as a kid can be; gay uncle, gay big sister. He has two trans girls and a transboy in his form. At least of them seem to me, from a very brief observation, to be troubled, attention seeking kids. And yes, one has an “out there” name, so I suspect he was always going to be special.

DS and his mates are quite eye rolly about it all. No one seems to be mean or bullying but they definitely seem to find it a a bit tedious.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 24/04/2019 19:23

My DS’s kid isn’t middle class by the way. But the school is streamed so his form probably is.

BettyDuMonde · 24/04/2019 19:32

Actually, there seems to be quite a lot of trans identifying kids in the ‘looked after’ category, so it can’t be just posh kids - look at Aimee Challoner!

juneau · 24/04/2019 19:47

That's an interesting (and terrifying, as I'm MC and white), viewpoint micaela64. I think you're right though. I'm very GC, but find I'm frequently the only one among who is prepared to speak out against mixed toilets, mixed changing rooms, and all this trans nonsense. I've lived in many places in my life (including London and a major city in another country that is well known for it's tolerance), and know quite a few gays/lesbians, and a few who are bisexual, but I've never knowingly met anyone who is trans, therefore I can't help feeling that this extremely vocal minority is vanishingly small. The figure in that article of 0.2 - 1% of the population is probably about right, so why is this trans agenda being forced down everyone's necks so vocally? Why is this tiny minority being allowed to be so vocal and strident and why is education being changed to allow them such a huge platform? I'm horrified that kids that are happy in their skins and feel normal and healthy as the boys and girls they were born as are being made to feel boring and that the term 'cis' has a) become a 'thing' and b) become an insult. I think we'll look back on this period of history as a time of utter madness and this 'trans' thing will be just another passing fad, but I really worry about the damage that is being done to our DC by trans-lobbyists with their pernicious agenda.

myrtleWilson · 24/04/2019 20:36

will read back this thread - just found it... Am in the kitchen listening to my just 16yr old DD making her GC points to her Dad....

myrtleWilson · 24/04/2019 20:39

Oh she's doing so well! - Am having a proud mom moment

IfNotNowThenWhy · 24/04/2019 20:45

I have a teen but it's not really a thing in our high school tbh. They have "learned" about gender a bit, and there's a lot of casual homophobia sadly, but I don't know of any kids who are saying they are trans.
In fact far from wanting to be special they all seem to desperately want to fit in-same trainers, same haircut, same school bags etc.

Petalflowers · 24/04/2019 20:51

I’ve asked around at work and hardly anyone has heard of the term ‘cis’.

sackrifice · 24/04/2019 20:51

Cis just rolls off the tongue so well, like a highly vitriolic hiss full of hate and superiority

SING ALONG NOW...

You're so CIS, you probably think this song is about you
But it's not, nothing is about you any more, losers.

RedToothBrush · 24/04/2019 21:00

And yes, one has an “out there” name, so I suspect he was always going to be special.

Why can't you name your children something different and also be gender critical? Why does that mean the parent want the child 'to be special'.

The whole 'being different' thing is currently ridiculous in its conformity to stereotypes.

Why can't you be a parent who just happens to like unusual names? Why do you have to conform to set names so you aren't mistaken for 'liberal identity types' who obviously believe in the gender fairy cos of the name they gave their kids?!

Jesus wept. The whole gender issue is about the conformity of stereotypes.

Don't make assumptions. Eagle's mother might well surprise you and own a dictionary tshirt. Charlotte's mother might condemn you as an evil bigot whilst they collect money for Mermaids on GoFund Me.

That's just a form of reverse snobbery.

RussellSprout · 24/04/2019 21:02

I'm as straight as straight can be, but remember as a 12 year old at an all girls school getting a crush on a sixth former and thinking I may be gay.

Looking back, it was never a sexual thing. More admiration and longing to be like her. A few girls had crushes on this one particular older girl. It's definitely a thing!

FannyCann · 24/04/2019 23:28

Definitely girls have crushes, often older girls they admire, sometimes teachers or other "unattainable " people who they worship. The whole point is that the person is unattainable. And it's usually a secret longing or maybe a deep admiration. It's a great shame if no one recognises this any more but instead puts it in a box with a label and sexualises it.

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 25/04/2019 03:49

"What are middle class parents doing to encourage all this? I know some of you won't want to hear it but I do wonder if gender neutral parenting is something of a gateway to this stuff. Most working class kids who've been brought up and encouraged to be stereotypical boys boys and girls girls just aren't into this trans stuff. It just isn't a thing in those schools, same with schools with large number of ethnic minorities."

So, I've wondered something a little similar to this. I am no longer as sure as I used to be that it's important to let kids wear what they feel comfortable with in terms of gender presentation.

It's not that I think it's wrong to let them either. But my thought process on this started because it struck me that while some things may be best if they are not associated with one sex - a lot of jobs or careers, or housework - clothing is actually not that important a thing. As long as the clothing itself is fairly practical, people are not disadvantaged because men conventionally wear one colour and women another. For whatever reason, people and society like to have some cultural ways or noting sexual differences, and I suspect this isn't something that can be totally extinguished. Better that it be something like clothing styles rather than political representation.
And as far as just letting it be individual choice, that can work to an extent, but in order to have a convention at all it has to be recognised by the group, not individualistic.
It's occured to me even more recently though that in fighting for kids to be able to wear what they want, because that really expresses who they are, or to make totally individualistic assertions of their personality through clothing choices, seems to be a big part of what is going on in trans thinking.

It almost seems like telling Suzy she has to wear a blouse is really wrong, because somehow her essential personality is a t-shirt.
It wonder if the message kids get is that they need to express their authentic self through clothing and similar choices, and somehow not to do it denies their personhood. Social conventions have to be tailored to their essential individuality.
The fact is through most of human history, most people have had zero or almost zero choice about what they wore, and it really just was whatever was available. This did not stunt their personality or autonomy or anything like that.

IfNotNowThenWhy · 25/04/2019 07:32

Since when do working people stick more to gender stereotypes?? I think that's rubbish.
Plenty of working class girls play football and boys like food tech and cooking. It's just maybe that lower income people
a) can afford kids clothes from Asda etc, where boys and girls clothes are fairly gendered, and
b) they have more to worry about than clothing (like paying the bills).Although I have had several conversations in the past with , I guess, what you might call working class mothers about the crap ness of girls school shoes.

hoodathunkit · 25/04/2019 09:31

Steiner schools make severely limiting TV and computer time a part of the school /parent contract. Does anyone know or have any statistics regarding numbers of trans youth in these schools? I just wonder if they are to some extent protected from all this and if statistics would bear that out?

I do not have any stats re your question, however

Triodos Bank is part of the Rudolph Steiner movement and its brand is of a forward thinking, ethical bank.

It actually funds lots of controversial religious movements across the spectrum including many groups that feature prominently in cult awareness websites and that have a long history of allegations of sexual and financial exploitation.

They also fund some women's groups and LGBTIQwhatever groups

If you are interested in the Steiner movement's stance on transgender issues an entity of interest is an entity called the Hivos-Triodos Fund that is being used to bankroll various transgender agendas including films

"Great awareness was raised on transgender issues due to a myriad of court cases by Hivos partner Transgender Education and Advocacy."

<a class="break-all" href="https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mOr_KHz1SKcJ:www.hivos.org/assets/2019/02/Hivos-Annual-Report-2015.pdf+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mOr_KHz1SKcJ:www.hivos.org/assets/2019/02/Hivos-Annual-Report-2015.pdf+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

also see

<a class="break-all" href="https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HbLPpdIKM58J:genderidentitywatch.com/2013/12/10/transgender-education-and-advocacy-kenya/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HbLPpdIKM58J:genderidentitywatch.com/2013/12/10/transgender-education-and-advocacy-kenya/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

and

<a class="break-all" href="https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dFHJ9BBSBf4J:www.devex.com/organizations/transgender-education-and-advocacy-tea-115876+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dFHJ9BBSBf4J:www.devex.com/organizations/transgender-education-and-advocacy-tea-115876+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

hoodathunkit · 25/04/2019 09:37

Also see

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190122180443/www.triodos.co.uk/projects/osho-leela/1804" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190122180443/www.triodos.co.uk/projects/osho-leela/1804

hoodathunkit · 25/04/2019 09:40

forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,25390,25390

forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,31516,31516

hoodathunkit · 25/04/2019 09:53

apologies

the last 2 links to the cult education forum take you to the forum index so you need to cut and paste if you want to access the relevant threads

The forum is well worth checking out though, lots of interesting stuff for anyone concerned about abuses against children and vulnerable adults

ThePankhurstConnection · 25/04/2019 10:04

I suspect a lot of this is happening because we (school/social media/society in general) are teaching them about sexualities and gender identity before they are old enough to actually feel genuine sexual attraction. This leaves them mistaking admiration, or close friendships for romance.

I think this is a very insightful comment. Growing up is a confusing time and I was forever having crushes on girls, boys, teachers, folk on TV and in bands -all the while loathing my own body. Hormones and changes are tricky things to handle. If you fill kids up with all this information they can become confused with what to do with it and make assumptions about their feelings good and bad, and as we know, the desire to belong to a tribe is very strong in children and teens.

Speaking of that social contagion aspect I remember very well harmless and some harmful contagions among people at my school and in my age group. One of which was eating disorders and while there was a lot of lip service to this one or two of us succumbed in more harmful ways and became genuinely ill with hospital involvement. The local private school (which a friend of mine attended) even ended up weighing the girls regularly - I'm pretty sure that wasn't a helpful move but I think they were concerned. All of this points to the fact that young girls are often uncomfortable in their bodies (after all why wouldn't you be when society makes a point of criticising women's appearances as a matter of course) and desperate to belong to something while also being different and special. Frankly that period of a young girl's life (and perhaps a boys too but I don't have personal experience of that) is a perfect storm for the likes of gender ideology. I have to say if medical and mental health professionals can't see this then I doubt their professionalism and knowledge.

ThePankhurstConnection · 25/04/2019 10:17

What are middle class parents doing to encourage all this? I know some of you won't want to hear it but I do wonder if gender neutral parenting is something of a gateway to this stuff. Most working class kids who've been brought up and encouraged to be stereotypical boys boys and girls girls just aren't into this trans stuff. It just isn't a thing in those schools, same with schools with large number of ethnic minorities.

My kids were brought up to play with what they wanted etc I guess vaguely gender neutral, are of the ages this is affecting and yet aren't buying into it. It's not so much I don't want to hear it as I just doubt gender neutral parenting is the catalyst and I strongly suspect the class aspect is a red herring. Plenty of working class girls will not be conforming to feminine stereotypes for a variety of reasons. I think this kind of thinking underestimates an entire class of people.

RedToothBrush · 25/04/2019 11:46

I think there is pressure in some middle class circles to be tolerant in a way that is different to working classes. The accusation of being a bigot almost holds more power, and this very much is a new thing.

The other thing is that there is more of a middle class naivety. It's something to do with how they are treated by fellow middle classes in healthcare and education, whereas there is a superiority dynamic that manifests with some doctors and teachers over working classes out of snobbery.

Thus you get this idea that the working classes are more skeptical of certain things and don't always think that everyone is working in their interests, whereas middle class entitlement results in better care and more options as a rule and this creates 'less failure' of the system for the middle classes. They have, by default, almost less need of safeguarding. Safeguarding by its very nature is about protecting the most vulnerable in society after all.

I think there is a class dynamic in this. Those who are most vocally against trans ideology fall in certain political groups. As do those who are most for it. Labour and the Liberal Democrats for example, currently do have more middle class support than the Conservatives. They believe its a vote winner.

Meanwhile on the flip side of that, you have the Conservatives and more hard line parties on the right who tend to attract more religious Conservatives (which includes both Christian and non Christian people) and a more blue collar background.

If you look at the left for opposition, it's come from a union background - again more working class as a rule. And there's the Communist Party in there too.

I don't actually fit into any of these groupings. This is because the Labour, the LD and the Green approach has departed from a liberal approach to issues and taken up a more authoritarian one which hides behind this idea of a 'Liberal Identity' which is quite the opposite to what it professes to be.

I know that there has been research into political belief and how many people truly have a liberal approach to life and how many have a more authoritarian one. It's shown that liberalism as it was has shrunk considerably, with a growing preference for authoritarianism. Indeed the UK has one of the highest levels of support for authoritarianism in the young that there is. Which might surprise a few people. And that has a lot to do with this concept of a Liberal Identity that is being pushed by political parties and targeted specifically at the middle classes.

The right has always been more authoritarian, but the left has not.

The middle classes tended in the past to be more on the right and the working class on the left. This switch has had a profound effect on British politics.

The culture war now askes us to pick a side, whereas before you were allowed to have a more nuanced approach and see rights and wrongs in both. Now you can't and as politics polarises it pushed to the extremes which are by nature also more authoritarian too. And that fractiousness opens up weaknesses in institutions which the middle classes are also not aware of because they perhaps have been better insulated by society.

The middle class has higher levels of trust in the media, justice, health, education and other positions of authority than the working class.

This is an important dynamic in a society where all those things are on the verge of implosion.

ThePankhurstConnection · 25/04/2019 11:56

Interesting post. Certainly challenges my off the cuff one and gives me something to think about. Certainly politics has become more polarised and that can't help but have an effect especially with the increase in identity politics. Thanks Red.

So, are identity politics mainly a middle class ideology because surely it began as a means of helping more marginalised groups of people. Has it been co-opted in a patronising (or patriarchal) fashion by the middle class liberal/left? It probably has given the stance of The Guardian and politicians.

MrsSnippyPants · 25/04/2019 12:31

Excellent post RedToothBrush, making me think.

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