Feminists - come and talk me through what women wear

[TarkaTheOttolenghi]

So I have a 15yr old dd. Yesterday she was wearing a very low cut dress (so low you could see the small bow in the centre of the plunge bra she was wearing) - she does have rather large norks.

So I said to her that she probably needed a little cami or vest top under the dress. She said ‘ha! Call yourself a feminist mum!’ and rolled her eyes at me. At which point I guppied a bit and left her to it.

So, obviously, the feminist in me knows I should be able to wear what the hell I want, free from judgement or unnecessary attention.
The experienced adult says to me that if I am a 15yr old girl with large norks, a very low top and short dress, I AM going to get unwanted attention. As a parent, I hope to help dd avoid this if at all possible but also to make sure she knows that she does not have to tolerate behaviour like that and that the fault lies with the person making the comments.

So is it not feminist of me to suggest dd doesn’t wear a top that low?

I really hate the expression "norks"

'norks' - are you Jeremy Clarkson?

DD is old enough to make an informed decision about what she wears.
Feminists can wear whatever they like.

It's not unfeminist, as much as it's disgusting this still happens she is making herself a target for unwanted and potentially scary attention. Again unfortunately there is also a greater chance boys will see her as a target.

When I look back on attention I got at 15 it scares me to think how vulnerable I was... I thought it was just normal that men in their 40s would be making lewd comments to me and boys would be opening discussing what bra size they thought the girls were in the group.

I think you can have a conversation along the lines... women should be free to dress any way they like... but unfortunately we haven't reached a point where this doesn't make you susceptible to unwanted male attention.

Others may disagree but this is how I would approach it

I don't disagree entirely as long as you can have the conversation without it turning into victim blaming, that could be quite hard.

I'm not sure what it says about me as a teenager that I didn't get lewd comments from men or boys. Lucky escape I guess.

Protecting women and girls is a feminist concern. Protecting a daughter from unwanted male attention is a mother's concern, too.

I can't answer your philosophical question, but I would talk to her about my reasons for counselling any teenage girl against clothing that exposes too much. Might ask here how she possesses such clothing, given that you object to it, and whether there could be limits set in terms of purchasing decisions.

Making it clear that it is her choice - within reason, as she is only 15 and I would continue to set limits whether she flaunts them or not. Explaining that choices may come with unintended consequences and while her choice to wear something does not absolve a perpetrator from being responsible for his own actions, she must understand that the world she lives in continues to blame the victim for all of the choices she made leading up to unwanted attention, ranging all the way to the worst crimes. And what effect this has on us.

It is not easy to navigate the trials and tribulations of parenting a teenager. I am on number two and while I have learned to mostly avoid making the same mistakes twice, I continue to make new ones, so this is merely my best guess at a possible approach (knowing neither you nor your child means it could only ever be a guess).

15 is not too young for a chat about how a male-dominated world works and what it means to navigate such a world as a female.

At that age I hated my large breasts, so I always wore men's t-shirts. It didn't stop the comments though. So I doubt changing what she wears will make much difference.

Norks is a truly horrible word though.

Is there a need to have underwear showing from under clothes, no, it's pointless.
The size of her breasts shouldn't matter at all, unfortunately it probably will attract unwanted attention. We will never fully rid the world of sleezy men, who make inappropriate comments about the way women/girls look or what they wear. It's a sad fact.

Teenage girls do dress to attract attention though, we are naive to think they don’t.

This brings to mind my dad screaming at my sister, ‘you’re not leaving this house looking like that. You look like a slag. Obviously not what the OP did but it’s all part of the same problem, namely girls are blamed for all the unwanted attention they receive, whether it’s for their clothing, the time they were out, where they were, if they have been drinking, the list is endless. Then you get the libfems going on about how they can wear whatever they like, which of course they can, but it still doesn’t change the context of wider society. I think maybe I would be asking my DD, if I had one, why it is that she feels she wants to wear a dress that shows her boobs. Why does she think that her evening will be better if she wears it, rather than a warmer, more comfortable top? It’ll probably go ‘because I like it... It’s sexy,’ well why do you like it? Don’t you think you’re sexy with other clothes on? If you don’t get attention from boys when you’re wearing other clothes then what does that say about what those boys are interested in? I think this way of examining young girls ideas about themselves, what they expect from boys and what is good attention and what is bad attention is probably the best way to go. OP if your daughter is 15 then she’ll have already seen a range of shitty behaviour on display from boys and men, so drawing on that experience and guiding her to making her own informed decisions seems like the best idea imo. Having said that, I have tried to talk to 15 year olds, so I know it’s not that straight forward.

I struggle with this a bit with my DD too. I don't like the length of skirts she wears, though she's only really going to parties with people her own age (16) I think I might say more if she was going to be around older men.

The other tack I take sometimes is to point out how comfortable men are in their clothing, which leaves them free to think about other things, whereas girls are always pulling something up or down and perpetually self conscious. Also that a lot of girls clothes restricts what they can do physically - climb, stand on something high, bend down, sit on the floor, run away etc. and that means they have to watch what they do with their bodies and it can make them vulnerable. My DD rolls her eyes but it's going in!

DD's head teacher is a feminist (she says). Girls school, boys in 6th form college.
The dress code for the 6th form is "head doesn't want to see up it, down it or through it".
Not sure she's talked through her reasoning but I'm quite happy with what seems to me a sensible code which gives the girls the freedom to choose how they dress and responsibility to stay within certain limits.
I'm sure we would all want the teachers to observe a similar code. It seems professional to me.

Good topic. I really struggle too. Always supported women’s right to wear whatever they choose. But dressing like a porn version of a teenager does seem a step beyond. Ours likes really short skirts and over the knee socks.. I have said she may attract unwanted attention, and got the death stare....

To be blunt it doesn't matter what your daughter wears, especially if she is large busted.

The only thing that makes it less likely she will receive unwanted attention is not being in the presence of the type who will give it.

The only difference being more covered up will make is she may receive less "judgement" of the "What does she expect/she wants it" type.

However in my experience there is always another reason that can be used to justify harassment "unwanted" attention or condemn the woman receiving it.

Speak honestly/openly with your daughter about the lies women are taught and how hard it is to fight them.

Norks is one of those words I’ve only ever heard women on here use, I never use it at home and have never heard a man use it. Never knew it would inspire such responses!

Thanks for the replies though, interesting that others struggle with this. I guess questioning why my dd as to why she would want to have her breasts exposed (in a non-confrontional way) is probably the best idea.

If shes old enough to say 'call yourself a feminist' shes old enough to understand that what she wears will draw attention and that she has to manage that as well. Either she's able to tell boys and men that her tits are nobodies business regardless of her choice of top or she'll decide to put a vest top on next time.

I think the only thing you can do it is discuss it as fully frankly and openly as you can with her.

People might say/do/think, you might feel/do/think. Ultimately I’d let her make her own choices but I’d want her to have all the facts and fully thought about it first.

Because to whoever said about that it’s naive to think teenagers don’t dress for attention that makes me feel sick and the more I reflect on it the more I just think that’s not true. Teenagers thinking is generally quite limited- by that I mean she will have considered the issue from 1 or two dimensions (eg- a) I like the top and b) what will my friends think of it, totally ignoring c) attention from boys her Age d) attention from older men c) the weather d) what will mum say about it.)

I'm more conservative in this area, and to whatisthisfuckery's excellent questions would ask who exactly decides what is considered 'attractive clothing' for women and girls, and why is it important for women and girls to be attractive-looking over comfortable anyway.

It would be nice if men and boys could deal with their problems about being attracted to women and girls and how to approach that, no matter what they wear, but until they do we need to consider the signals we give out.

I think of norks as a MN inside joke word too OP, just like fanjo. Never heard anyone in real life say either of them, also never heard anyone on here bat an eyelid at the word so the responses to you are unexpected to say the least!!

I haven't had to deal with this myself (two DSs) but just to say my mum still criticises my clothes, even though I have 2 kids and am in my 30s. It's true I am large of nork but a scoop or v neck is more flattering, I'm not trying to flash everyone... I try to just eyeroll but it does wound. I'd go down the route of outlining principles/reasons for clothing choices to your DD, rather than criticising how she looks in the clothes themselves if you see what I mean.

I am not in UK, is “norks” common slang there for breasts? It’s a rather ugly sounding word when breasts works just fine ;)

Anyway, if your daughter is large breasted it won’t matter what she wears. I was always large breasted and got criticized (by a boyfriend of all people) for wearing clothing that showed off my breasts - I was wearing sweaters and turtlenecks at that point in my life and trying to hide my body due to my anorexia. It was an early lesson in my life that what attracts the male gaze is my body, not my clothing.

I do think women should wear whatever they want. I don’t think it is appropriate to insinuate that a woman is ever at fault for males actions because of their clothing choices (male gaze, harassment, assault), or to insinuate their clothing makes them “less worthy” in any fashion (dressing like a “slut” etc).

I also think that it is worth it as women discussing why we choose certain clothing over others. Teenagers of course often dress for others. I don’t necessarily think this means they should not dress that way. As a 40-year old women I also “dress for others” in that I wear professional clothing at work when I would rather be in yoga pants or pajamas. But it is still worth discourse about why and who they dress for, so she can take that within herself and consider it, rather than it be about what she “can” and “can’t” wear (assuming no school uniform is required etc).

I am not in UK, is “norks” common slang there for breasts? It’s a rather ugly sounding word when breasts works just fine ;)

I've never heard it used in real life- only on here, and even here I've seen posters say they don't like it.

Ask her why she thinks boys and men don't dress like that if she's bringing feminism into it.

Doesn't the word Norks come from thoseAngus Thongs and Snogging books? A jokey word in jokey books.

I'd caution people against sharing stories of teenage breasts on here.

'norks'

Are you for fucking real?