Feminists - come and talk me through what women wear

[TarkaTheOttolenghi]

So I have a 15yr old dd. Yesterday she was wearing a very low cut dress (so low you could see the small bow in the centre of the plunge bra she was wearing) - she does have rather large norks.

So I said to her that she probably needed a little cami or vest top under the dress. She said ‘ha! Call yourself a feminist mum!’ and rolled her eyes at me. At which point I guppied a bit and left her to it.

So, obviously, the feminist in me knows I should be able to wear what the hell I want, free from judgement or unnecessary attention.
The experienced adult says to me that if I am a 15yr old girl with large norks, a very low top and short dress, I AM going to get unwanted attention. As a parent, I hope to help dd avoid this if at all possible but also to make sure she knows that she does not have to tolerate behaviour like that and that the fault lies with the person making the comments.

So is it not feminist of me to suggest dd doesn’t wear a top that low?

Wearing sexualised, revealing clothing on a night out is rather like walking through a tiger enclosure dragging a joint of raw meat. Sure, the tigers may well have attacked you anyway - that’s what tigers do - but the raw meat makes it much more likely.
For tigers, read sexual predators.
I’d say to your DD that it’s absolutely her right to wear what she likes, but entitled creeps will like it too, in all the wrong ways.
And if she still wants to wear clothes that scream “Up for it!”, she needs some martial arts/self defence training to cope with the inevitable result.
I recommend Krav Maga - my DD can drop a 6 foot attacker on the floor in seconds!

Its a tricky one as my head says you should be able to wear what you want and that its one step away from saying she wore a short skirt so it wasnt rape. The other bit of me lives in the real world where i know certain clothing attracts more attention than other clothing and id want to protect my daughter from it.

The point is that ‘fashion’ for girls and women or just looking current or nice or whatever... is massively sexualised. I didn’t read it like that when I was a kid because to me it was just what looking nice at that time looked like, or I wanted to be wearing the latest thing that my idols wore. Or wearing my my musical subgroup’s look. Fuckability was not what I was aiming to communicate.

This. And it may go against current feminist thinking (which is why I do not follow current feminist thinking!) but opting into a sexualised agenda does put a girl on the line. I don't care if she is dressing for friends or for boys; it's showcasing the female body as sexual.

Girls are so naturally beautiful and many don't even realise it. I had such complexes about my body when I was a teen because it didn't seem to be attractive enough. Attractive for WHOM? I look back at photos of myself back then, photos where I was just myself and not wearing a wig and makeup (I desperately wanted straight hair and boys to like me) and I can see that I had real beauty that did not need a single thing to enhance it.
As a society we have lost the recognition that beauty does not have to be sexual. Fresh-faced loveliness should surely be enough, and we all have it until we ruin it with imposed props. Make up and fashion are really only props -- defying them is true confidence.

And if she still wants to wear clothes that scream “Up for it!”, she needs some martial arts/self defence training to cope with the inevitable result

Is there a guide I can download that lists which items of clothing scream "up for it"? I wouldn't want to be inadvertently wearing such an item and then have no training to cope with the "inevitable result".

I also think a lot of women's preening (hair, make up, clothes etc) is more about how they are seen by other women than how they are seen by men.

Can I ask about this as a friend of mine uses this line to explain some of the clothing choices young women make and I haven't yet understood the reasoning. Why are women preening for women?

I've a 10 year old dd (and older sons) and I'm anticipating the kind of discussions/conversations described here (so I'm shamelessly following). We already have discussions about appropriate dressing (for school, for sport, for the park/playground etc), and comfort/practicality but I do wonder will the stuff she understands completely now go out the window as a teen.

Is there a guide I can download that lists which items of clothing scream "up for it"? I wouldn't want to be inadvertently wearing such an item and then have no training to cope with the "inevitable result".

We've a barrister over here (Ireland) who apparently believes that wearing a thong under your clothing is an indicator of just that. Men can apparently sense them with their "up for it" radar. So it couldn't possibly be rape.

I know your question is rhetorical and I completely get that no clothing is an indicator of being "up for it". But I've a horrible feeling that if you polled a group of men they'd have a long list (probably including "being a woman outside the confines of her home").

3timeslucky I think I read about that barrister on here. Words fail me really.

It’s all very well for we feminists to be angry that men think revealing clothing is an invitation, but the sad truth is - they do.
And judges and juries seem to agree with them. Our DDs have to live in the real sexist world, not a safe feminist utopia.

I really think of this question of sexualisation of clothing as different from being protected from assault or rape.

Of course there is a connection, and I would tell someone who I thought was wearing something risky that it would be a problem, in the same way I'd say if they had some other risk they didn't realise. And if they are assaulted, it's a crime.

The question though of whether it is a good thing to participate in the sexualisation of women, to me, is it's own important issue. For daughters and sons. It's not always easy to make a clear line between feeling like you are taking care of yourself and presenting yourself well, which has clear links to good mental health, and following fads that have a less healthy origin, or feeling that you have to be "sexy" - and what the heck does sexy mean, anyway.

I think this is something that young people really need to think about though, and they will often need adult guidance. Not just about the effect on them personally, but the effect on society. I know it's really non-PC to talk about the effect of this kind of clothing on boys, but I don't think it's any better for them to have the impression that sexualisation of young women's clothing is normal. I'm not sure how to avoid it though if it is, in fact, what they see most of the time - it will influence them in the same way it influences young women who feel they need to dress that way.

"Can I ask about this as a friend of mine uses this line to explain some of the clothing choices young women make and I haven't yet understood the reasoning. Why are women preening for women? "

My experience with my daughters is there can be significant social pressure from the female hierarchy in their schools. It can relate to the type of clothing - crop tops were what we struggled with with my eldest, all she could see was that the cool girls all worse them - but also make-up and expensive branding.

I would say that in the early teen years, that was far more motivating than being attractive to boys. IN fact I don't think the boys really cared at all what the girls wore. The ones that weren't totally caught up in video games were just happy if a girl talked to them.

..significant social pressure from the female hierarchy...

"Mean Girls" is still one of my favourite films ever.

Tina Fey is a genius.

Why are women preening for women?

Social approval maybe?
I think a lot of the time women dress for other women rather than men.
People I know certainly appreciate compliments from their female friends on hair, makeup clothes, where they don't appreciate comments at all from men.

Thanks goosefoot and deydododatdodontdeydo.

Both observations make sense. I'm heading out to take the dog for a walk and will doubtlessly be musing over thoughts of how we as women can make it easier for other women to feel accepted (by women) and good about themselves independently of how they dress or present themselves. Whether that would ever be either possible amongst teens or enough to overcome the desire for peer acceptance in teen groups ... I don't know. But definitely food for thought.

Loads of good points on here but Goosefoot particularly well made about speaking to boys also about fashion which is massively sexualised.. but only for girls and women and WTAF that is about.

I think we are SO attuned to body surveillance and clothing surveillance of (and from) other women, and we don't do it to men. I think we learn it from people around us my mother included, despite her commitment to feminism in many many ways from media presenting successful women as always beautiful, from portrayals of the idea that women with status and success may have some extra accomplishment but at the minimum they have beauty and know what to wear, how to wear it, what to wear it with. And from the mocking we tolerate of women who are not beautiful - in film, in standup comedy, in social status hierarchies we build ourselves in school and beyond. I don't doubt that girls and women do this to impress each other.
But I think that's a strong reflection of the fact that femininity is defined and framed by men; women are not only supposed to perform it, but to compete with each other and embed it in their own judgements of each other.
Bollocks to that.

I happened to see a clip of an old TOTP the other day with Madonna in her first appearance in the UK. I was struck by how innocent her dancing routine and street clothes style was compared to what is the norm today. It's a shame she led the charge to sexualise her dress and her performances.
It all filters down.

I think I'd probably approach it the same way as if my DS wanted to wander round with his trousers half way down his bum with his pants on display - I don't like that fashion & would discourage my teens from doing it.

Obviously, I know a teenage girl with a low top is likely to attract attention in a way that a boy's pants wouldn't but I'd be reluctant to say that to her. I'd just insist I want my children to look presentable & "presentable" to me involves wearing clothes that cover your underwear. It's called underwear for a reason!

"I happened to see a clip of an old TOTP the other day with Madonna in her first appearance in the UK. I was struck by how innocent her dancing routine and street clothes style was compared to what is the norm today. It's a shame she led the charge to sexualise her dress and her performances.
It all filters down."

Yes, I think that's part of the problem. It's not just about the idea of presenting as sexy, there is also an idea that you have to be edgy, and that seems to mean always pushing things a little farther. I see it with music videos, but also things like depictions of sex and violence on television. And it does become the new normal, and then needs to be pushed farther to be edgy.

"I really dislike the idea that somehow women and girls get a free pass in their choices while at the same time we say that fashion, advertising, and pornography all sexualise women inappropriately, in ways that impact them negatively.

If I as a grown women, knowing this, want to embrace that, or someone like Beyonce makes it her trade, we are hardly in a position to complain when a man notices it ."

I would advocate blinkers for men, so women can wear what they want and not be subject to a continual ogle-fest.

The root of this is that women in our patriarchal society are expected to look decorative and attractive to men. It's a male demand, and one that we have to address by addressing male behaviour.

A girl who realises that it isn't her job to please men, might be one who refuses to take part in sexualised feminine garb, which is why I posed that particular question.