trying too hard to be gender neutral

[PickleFish]

Just been reading guidance linked to from the D of E website (under campcraft) for dealing with periods on expeditions - all incredibly gender neutral and inclusive, "people with periods" not girls/women, etc, and asking that if the information is copied, the language remain gender neutral, as "not everyone with periods presents as female", etc. Fair enough.

www.theoutdoorspeople.com/blog/2017/3/22/expedition-information-for-people-who-have-periods

But then they say that pupils might not feel comfortable discussing periods with "someone who identifies as male". Surely that shows that they've not even thought it through, and have just gone through replacing every time they wanted to say 'man' or 'male' with 'identifies as male'. If I were a teenage girl going on an expedition, the last person I'd want to discuss periods with is actually someone who 'identifies as female'. I'd like a woman, regardless of presentation. Or if I really had to, a man, one who wasn't pretending to know what being a female was like. This is one case where they actually need a proper word for someone with the biology that means they have periods, and identification has nothing to do with it.

Balldemort creeps into my mind after reading that.

Doesn't I.D as male so fine for "people with periods" aka women, to talk to. Shudder.

DD1 was on her period during DoE expedition. I think it was worse there was no bushes or trees to hide in for a wee so she didn't drink enough and ended up with a headache. Still enjoyed the challenge though.

There had to be a point where the person writing that realised it was complete tripe and reached for the secret bottle of gin in their desk drawer.

I agree the language is unnecessarly clumsy and could cause confusion.

I was surprised to just read a BBC article about Period Poverty that used women and girls (apart from one use of learners) entirely

BBC News - All Welsh schools to get free sanitary products
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-47883449

and i got the quote slightly wrong - it's that they might not feel comfortable discussing them with someone who 'presents as a male', not 'identifies as'. Bizarre. 'Presenting as a female' is completely not necessary for me to want to discuss periods with them. 'Being a female', on the other hand, would be quite helpful.

Reaching for the gin, indeed.

Ooh I think ‘presents’ is actually helpful in that context. It’s closer to ‘being’ than ‘identifies as’. I think?

I don't. I'd be OK discussing periods with a woman who presents as male. But much less so with a man who presents as a woman. In my mind, they seemed close to synonymous, but maybe I'm reading it wrong.

I think 'presents' is worse! It implies it's all about how you present yourself - ie your clothing, makeup, hairstyle, etc. Especially on D of E, where there's very little difference in how people present.

I also think presents as worse - it feeds into the stereotypes again (what a woman must wear in order to look like a woman and be considered attractive) and goes hand in hand with 'gender expression' which I heard on Good Morning Britain interview with Fox and Owl and as far as I can tell is another layer of confusion as to what is real and what isn't.

So a man can be a trans woman who presents as a 'masculine' trans women (I.e looks like a man) but calls himself a woman or a lesbian or both, or a unicorn. All that BS just doesn't really go far to explain who is what. More muddying the waters to cause deliberate confusions and mess around with language and meaning.

They're trying so hard to be woke aren't they - smugly ignoring the fact that they're eradicating half of the population without a split second's hesitation. And their target audience is children and schools?

I note that their individual biographies refer to them as he or her - how transphobic and exclusionary of them. More literal violence.

If Lara Croft had had to deal with this shit she'd have stayed indoors and become a librarian.

Good point bingo
Everyone presents the same on DoE really.

Obviously DD tried to do it in miniskirt and high heels, like a good person presenting as a female. But they insisted on hiking boots and full waterproofs.

Interesting; 'the outdoors people' and the information pages on their site are linked to from the D of E site - opening automatically so that they at first glance appear to be part of D of E.

But they're a separate company offering adventure education, as well as various types of training, including 'gender identity awareness training for adventure education'. And one of the people listed as facilitating that is listed as a trans-rights-activist, and uses 'they'.

www.theoutdoorspeople.com/training

That course covers a lot of things, including the Equality act, advice on gender segregation in sport, accommodation, safety in water activities by those using chest binders, and a whole variety of other topics. I wonder what exactly they say about those things - especially since the D of E appears to be endorsing them by linking to all their articles.

@AlwaysComingHome

If Lara Croft had had to deal with this shit she'd have stayed indoors and become a librarian.

High-five! I was thinking exactly the same thing.

“ In 2015, Emma came out to their workplace as a non-binary transgender person, meaning that they identify as neither a man nor a woman.”

What utter utter navel-gazing cack is this.

Gender identity is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act, Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic.
Sex is a protected characteristic.
The people who have written this woke bollocks don't appear to know the current law and how it should be applied.
Gender segregation is ridiculous, the correct term is sex segregation.

By the by, I started my first period ever on a camping trip with my dad, step mom, and grandparents and I wasn't comfortable discussing it with any of them. Which is kind of telling considering my mother had spent a significant amount of time discussing female reproductive health, genital care, and sani-pro (including having me insert and remove a tampon in private prior to beginning menses to ensure I could navigate it when the time came - we then had a conversation about the tampon experience).

Well guess what, I navigated it when the time came but didn't have any tampons as at that age I was just focused on making sure I had my bathing suit, sneakers, and books to read by the campfire.

I improvised with paper towels and hid my physical discomfort as well as mess. Upon returning to my mother I told her what happened and she cried while holding me because she tried so hard to help me be comfortable with what being a woman would entail in every regard.

When I went back to my dad's house I told them that I began menses but didn't say when. My dad and stepmom took me out for a new outfit and dinner to celebrate my rite of passage so it isn't like they weren't welcoming or willing to be supportive.

While the above story is merely my experience I expect my reactions were similar for many girls. Above and beyond experiences like these I just don't think most girls would be comfortable having these conversations with some already trusted adults (possibly a select few of their trusted adults) and much less strangers. They deserve to be safeguarded, respected, and allowed personal dignity.

Can't read past "People with periods".

Is this the erasure that we women and girls are supposed to enjoy?

Fuck them.

It makes you wonder why we’re not allowed to have a word for people who have the sort of biology that means they might have periods. Why would that be so bad?

Not to worry - there is a whole section on the course about terminology involved in gender and sexuality. I'm sure it would all be made clear.

It is a bit worrying if they don't know the law, but are teaching courses on it that are approved by and attended by people offering outdoors education, including accommodation for groups of students. I wonder if the D of E programme is aware of what they are endorsing, or if it is inadvertent.

When I did my D of E last millennium I wore combat trousers, t-shirt, fleece, hiking boots and waterproof coat.

Is that presenting as male or female?

Or was I just presenting as a hiker?

Transgender ideology is like a virus. It's everywhere.

I imagine the D of E himself would be mighty pissed off at this kind of language being used.

The Emma trainer person named on the Outdoors People website has trained Leed City Counicil of One Click Self-id of gender fame www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3559178-Leeds-Council-Allow-1-click-self-ID-FFS , Leeds NHS Clinical Commissioning Group and Leeds Learning Improvement Team, among others www.simpsontraining.org/ Scroll down to "Clients"

Which DofE page linked to this company? I couldn't find it.

The National's Stephen Paton (who has provided such a glowing endorsement of Emma's training) has been actively attacking Joan McAlpine & TransgenderTrend this week:

twitter.com/JoanMcAlpine/status/1117754768397602817