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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I am officially transphobic...

76 replies

MrsNathanDrake · 10/04/2019 21:35

Wow... so dsd just flounced upstairs as she 'can't cope with the transphobia' after I commented on a news story where. Very PC PC complained to Sainsbury's about the 'feminine hygiene' labelling of sanitary protection wasn't inclusive enough...

I'm sad that a very intelligent 17 year old appears to be buying in to this shit, but I feel I deserve a badge of honour for flagging it...

OP posts:
aprarl · 12/04/2019 10:23

Tumblr and the internet have a lot to answer for. Mass online grooming.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 12/04/2019 10:26

My 14 year old gets it. He didn’t really question it all at first (which is deeply worrying esp when the school gets ferret and vole in for a talk, and some person who does talks on gender discrimination in the workplace - even though... you know the rest).

We had a discussion around fairness and rights. I’m wary of pushing ideas at him but he has a reasonably questioning brain.

Fairenuff · 12/04/2019 10:59

My dd has done a very good job of trying to explain her logic but we always fall down on two things:

  1. We don't have the words to discuss this because when I say woman and female I mean those born female and when she says woman and female she means it to include transwomen. So finding the language is a massive hurdle, especially as I don't use the term 'cis'. I tend to say natal women if I have to differentiate.

  2. She is adamant that TWAW so it's really difficult to open her eyes to the injustices of allowing transwomen into female only spaces. For example she says transwomen in female changing areas are allowed to be there because they are women

Her main point is that it is wrong to have prejudice against a particular group and if there is a problem it needs to be addressed in law or on a case by case basis. But we should not discriminate against a whole group on the basis that there might be problems.

I've explained that we discriminate against men in female spaces even though most men won't harm women and she does agree with this. So she can accept some aspects but is just not joining the dots at the moment.

Regarding transing children and puberty blockers, she says it's the old 'Won't someone think of the children' pearl clutching. When I explain how hard it is for parents because they don't have all the information they really need, she says it's up to them as parents to make choices for their children in this as they do for other things.

Personally I think she is young and naïve in her reasoning and I am hopeful that one day she will look back on these opinions in horror. She's read 1984 and the handmaid's tale and cannot see any similarity or concern so I have stopped asking her how many fingers she can see Grin

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 12/04/2019 11:14

I’d remind her of the time in her past when she was adamant that: she was a cat, wanted to wear a spacesuit to school, she was a witch, the cat could talk etc. Then ask if a child of the same age could absolutely make decisions that would alter their boys and whole life (and make the medically dependent for life). I always ask - who gains (pharma companies maybe?).

What is biology ? XX / XY - do ‘feelings’ trump science?

What is a woman - why, in the history of man, is the definition of women being challenged now and by whom - and why?

The empathy she shows you could argue is a ‘female’ emotion. Do the bullies and thugs demonstrate this?

Does wearing a dress make you a woman (god help me then). Or a crew cut make you a man (ditto).

Why does half of the population need to bow down to a very small minority of a very small minority?

Where are the trans men in this debacle?

And if she is old enough - show her the PIE shit storm (and remind her who is still in the public eye today who stood up for them).

Remind her that the world isn’t fair, people are mainly out for themselves, and people lie to get what they want.

Oh and the term ‘cis’ Is pretty horrible and mostly thought of as an insult. Remind her (again if she is old enough) of the other charming descriptions of women used in this arena (bleeders, breeders, etc). And if old enough, there are plenty of screenshots of a certain person in Canada having a discussing approaching girls in public loos regarding tampons. And photographing themselves in ladies loos with children in the background (proving a point)?

Be woman, be proud of being a woman! But first understand what one is (and what isn’t).

HorsewithnoGender · 12/04/2019 11:35

Tumblr and the internet have a lot to answer for.

Isn't tumblr a subset of the internet? Winkingsmiley.

Seriously tho'..there are many radical feminist blogs on tumblr; I have one. That's how I found out about this place.

But I agree with your general point and sites like tumblr, twatter, et al could do a lot more about the vitriol which, you might not be surprised to hear, comes mostly from the TRA blogs; the radfems there don't need to do that so much I assume because of facts and logic.

DodoPatrol · 12/04/2019 11:41

I've had some slightly better discussions with DD recently along the lines of -
'You know, they could get some really useful statistics out of this on gender pay gaps and things. It'll be so interesting to see how much of the disadvantage for girls and women comes from being actually female, and being smaller and less imposing, and having periods and babies -- and how much comes from assumptions people make when they hear a female name. If they collect information from female women AND male transwomen, they'll be able to separate all of that out. That would be so great.'

On a gut level, though, the moment of 'Oh shit, what if Creepy Callum* is about to claim he's trans now he's dyed his hair blue?' might have had more effect.

*Not his/her real name

ErrolTheDragon · 12/04/2019 12:28

DS (PPE) tells me it’s an ‘age thing’ that accounts for my being a TERF.

Sure - age and experience.

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
-- Mark Twain

Carriemac · 12/04/2019 12:36

love love love that mark twain quote
I just 'ruined ' a family meal out when I explained exactly in graphic detail to my three 'woke ' uni aged children why TW should not use a womans toilet.
I'm 'not kind' apparently

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 12/04/2019 12:47

My kids, 27 and 33, do get it but think I am on MN too much and should not let it bother me -- it will be OK, it's just a minority, it will never gain traction etc

Gaaaah, this is the exact position of my mum and partner. Ditto things like the push towards legitimising prostitution as a career choice, commercialising surrogacy, criminalising abortion - just stop reading about it if it upsets you, don't think about it too much, it probably won't affect you personally. Yeh, I'm OK Jack, who cares about those other women.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/04/2019 12:47

People who think it's ok for males to use the women's loos because it doesn't bother them aren't 'being kind' to the many, many women who need single sex loos.

There's one thing worse than restricting the rights of a disadvantaged minority - demolishing the rights of a disadvantaged majority. (If they don't realise that many women are disadvantaged, even in 21st c U.K., I refer them to Mark Twain).

Yes, even if those people are just boring women, maybe Shock middle aged or elderly.Hmm

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 12/04/2019 12:50

Carriemac I ruined our last family meal the same way and have since been told that quoting crime statistics as they relate to biological facts is "confrontational and aggressive". Not men raping and killing, no no, me for talking about it.

ScipioAfricanus · 12/04/2019 13:01

Some kids I’ve come across in recent years have treated the fashion of being trans as a bit of a joke. I can’t delve further but I get the impression that a lot of the intelligent younger ones are well aware of some of the complete lack of logic surrounding it all. I hope that this is true.

Endofthedays · 12/04/2019 13:18

I wonder if there are differences in upbringing when it comes to teens and young adults believing in transgenderism.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 12/04/2019 13:23

Yesssss, all this being kind.

So ‘be kind’ to a male bodied person (who may or may not genuinely ‘feel like a woman’ in their head) - or to the legion of women and girls who do not feel comfortable (or just plain old scared) by a man on their changing room, loos, refuges etc.

I’m guessing there are a shit load fewer men wanting to gain access than theirs are women and girls who don’t want men to have access.

Why do they have a louder voice? Transvestites and transsexuals have always been around. Not causing alarm or offence. Trying to blend in and not draw attention (apart from the very flamboyant transvestites I used to meet clubbing who were likea catty Lily Savage on speed but everyone - even they - know it was more ‘performance’ and real life).

I guess they would have been most at risk from... hmmm... men and male aggression? And the women at risk from men who just have a good old mental illness or are looking to have women/gain access to vulnerable women and girls by playing the trans card?

How many women need to be attacked - scared - pee their bloody pants because they don’t feel they can use a public loo - for a small number of males ? Why is this ok?

truthisarevolutionaryact · 12/04/2019 13:42

This thread shows how children / young people have been groomed into being anti science / anti biological facts and frankly anti women's safety :
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3541908-Regulatory-capture?reverse=1

There's another thread on here highlighting the tactical nature of T organisations where they openly talk about targeting education / universities etc with their ideology. And this is the consequence. It won't change until the brutal reality of women's biology and life events (sexual harassment, rape, birth injuries and so on ) really impact on women. And although I really hope I'm wrong, on a bad day, I reckon by then it will be too late.

ZebrasAreBras · 12/04/2019 13:54

ScipioAfricanus - that's my teens too. They've not swallowed the gender identity thing at all - but maybe that's because they've been brought up by parents who has always spoken out against gender stereotypes.

The being kind thing - I don't remember anyone telling Travis to be kind to Top Shop, when being v vocal about not being allowed in the women's changing rooms. Travis wasn't told to be kind to the women and girls in the changing rooms, who might not want someone male-bodied in there with them. Women & girls just have to put up with it because Travis identifies as a woman.

Nobody's ever told to be kind to the feminists who campaigning for some spaces to be strictly single sex. We get told to die in a fire. Funny that.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 12/04/2019 13:55

I just broached the topic for the first time with my youngest stepson (11). He seems to think its all bollocks, and attention seeking. His reasoning? 3 kids came out as 'transboys' at the same time in his class followed by a couple of 'nonbinary' (which he says surely all people are non-binary by definition...good lad). He says being trans is apparently rare, so, what are the odds of this? I cannot fault his reasoning and am glad he has not fell for it all as he is rather feminine himself so I was a bit worried he might be caught up in it all but semingly, no.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 12/04/2019 15:16

When I were a lass... it was anorexia back in the day wasn't it?

And when I was in primary school there was a scary story going around about the church opposite the school being haunted by a small sprite-like creature with needles sticking out of its head.

It was true! And the strange mysterious light that followed you as you passed the windows.

Friends and classmates(well the girls anyway) were adamant that they had seen all of this first hand, and that they were so soooooo scared of the creature coming to get them and the girls would all run full pelt past the church,

However, I knew it smelled fishy and confirmed it was all horse poo when I realised that the originator of the story was my sister (who used to make up nonsense to see if I would fall for it, hence my reluctance to believe anything anyone tells me!).

stillathing · 12/04/2019 21:30

Maybe I'm being overly dramatic but I seriously don't know how I'd cope if my kids swallow genderism when they get to secondary school. The inherent misogyny of it..... It would be as bad as living with a racist. I think I would need an intervention of some sort!

Lucky222 · 12/04/2019 22:52

The other day, I got told by a relative who works at a woman's refuge that she knows how much I hate trans people and that I'm a transphobe when I sent her link to DM article about abuser gaining access to female only St Mungo hostel and being aggressive to women in there. :O I don;t think the word has any meaning anymore, it is so mis-used.

Antibles · 12/04/2019 23:47

I too have 'ruined' meals and car journeys by getting all uppity about women's rights and the TRA agenda but I do think I have successfully vaccinated my children against the nonsense. I hope so anyway.

ixqik · 13/04/2019 02:43

We have, however, agreed that under 18s shouldn’t be put on puberty blockers.

Please inform your dd that agreeing to this idea alone makes her 'transphobic'.

ChattyLion · 13/04/2019 06:05

People being kind is why I had a middle aged large male-bodied person in my unadapted women’s toilets at work and felt I couldn’t challenge that situation. Various posters on here have described the same horrible experience. None of us women feeling able to speak to each other about it, and too scared for our jobs to complain because the HR team clearly are happy with it.

I think it’s hard to understand when you are young and all this is in the abstract for you but it DOES happen to women, and is actuall a real, absolutely humiliating, privacy obliterating, imposition of male domination of you even in the most private of spaces which you have no choice but to use, if you want to continue with your paid employment.

That lack of power as a woman with a body that unavoidably needs to use a toilet space for various reasons, makes it plain to you as a woman employee, that you are worthless and unsupported in the eyes of your employer .because you are a woman.

All this when you are trying to operate in the workplace on a level with men.

Which until you have kids is relatively possible to do in many occupations. But when you do have kids, you are seeing your male colleagues’ working lives being so much freer and fuller of relative advantage to you because they are a father and you are a mother. Male advantage and encouragement of male career participation is everywhere at work- whether they have kids or not. it is infuriating. Female relative disadvantage and discouragement of participation is everywhere overtly or covertly if you are in the reproductive years. Then you also have the humiliation of being made to share toilet faculties with men in the next stall.

I do not want any male colleagues knowing when I am on my period, pissing or shitting, upset or having a leaky period or a miscarriage. I especially do not want men to know when that knowledge may be giving them a sexual thrill.

I want privacy dignity and single sex toileting and showering provision at work. Young people need to understand that in all areas of their lives that they will be giving up single sex spaces- except in practice transmen won’t claim male spaces in the same way transwomen are already doing in female spaces, because biological sex power relations and norms and soxioiasation remain relevant after transition. If it’s not safe for transmen they can use the ladies (which they are more than welcome to do).

It’s not scary to men to have a transman in their men’s toilets. But is IS scary to have men in women’s toilets for lots of us. Trust me I used to jump out of my skin seeing a large male figure looming out of the toilet stall behind me. It is scary to many of us to have men in what are meant to be female spaces and our feelings should be worthy of respect.

Ask your kids if they saw a man hanging about in the women’s toilets, being used by women and children what would they do or say or think of his motives? That is what self Id means. You can’t challenge that man any more. Whatever he looks like or is wearing. His right to be there is more important than your right to object and want privacy.

But: Why should women be scared away from using women’s Toilets? Should women have to leave their jobs and work somewhere else if they don’t like dealing with men in the work toilets. Is that fair? Stay at home all day because they were born in a woman’s body so they don’t have a right to safety control and privacy? Men on the other hand get to do what they want in the face of women’s fear and discomfort and be validated for that as brave and stunning? That’s the world that ‘being kind’ is creating.

HorsewithnoAppetiteForThis · 13/04/2019 07:13

The inherent misogyny of it..... It would be as bad as living with a racist.

This. This. This.

3dogs2cats · 13/04/2019 07:48

It is as bad as living with a racist. And at the same time, getting called out for being a disgusting fascist. Living with a gender confused and troubled teen and a a pro trans 20 something is a special kind of hell. I don’t think I did anything to deserve this.
I feel utterly silenced. If they catch me on MN, it’s proof of my perfidy.i say as little as possible. But one of these days I may just explode. Not sure these living arrangements can continue.

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