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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A West Midlands Police officer said the protests did not constitute a hate crime despite coming "very close".

30 replies

Fairenuff · 29/03/2019 10:58

BBC news

I think the Police need to make clear what a hate crime actually is and apply the law consistently. What are people allowed to speak about and protest?

The lack of clear definitions from government, lawmakers and law enforcers is failing to uphold rights and freedoms which we the people need in order to coexist in peace. At the moment it just seems that we are all vulnerable.

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Whatisthisfuckery · 29/03/2019 11:05

I thought a hate crime could only have happened if an actual crime has occurred. Like if someone calls me an ugly dyke it’s not a hate crime, but if they punch me in the face and call me an ugly dyke it’s a hate crime, but if they just punch me in the face it’s a regular old crime. It’s all very unclear but me being a woman, and a lesbian, I doubt the police would give a shit anyway.

nauticant · 29/03/2019 11:07

A West Midlands Police officer said the protests did not constitute a hate crime despite coming "very close".

That looks more like a political statement than the police enforcing the law.

Everything which is not forbidden is allowed means that the police should not be seeking to control people's lawful behaviour.

Fazackerley · 29/03/2019 11:10

Do you think the police have rung up the protesters at home to ask why they would want to be mean?

Or is itonly white middle class 'terfs' who get that special treatment?

SomeDyke · 29/03/2019 11:20

but me being a woman, and a lesbian, I doubt the police would give a shit anyway.

I agree 100%.

From my jaded memory, I always thought that the 'hate' bit was originally supposed to help the lesbian and gay community (and others). So, if someone punched you because you were a dyke (as happened to someone I knew), then recording it as someone got randomly thumped on a Friday night after the pub chucked out was seen as nothing particularly unusual. Unless you also record the fact that the reason they got thumped was because they were coming out of a lesbian bar at the time. Puts the thump into context.

Except now, the supposed intention being inferred, but without any actual crime is the supposed 'hate crime'. But the crime was supposed to be the crime, not the added motivation for the crime. But no surprise that this has now become twisted where the thought not the deed is seen as the problem by the woke.

And if you needed even more confirmation, the fact that plain ole misogyny and sexism is not seen as a hate issue, tells you almost all you need to know. It was always about the menz.......

(Just checked the CAB, and yes, it DOES NOT list sex under hate incidents list, and although later says some forces chose to record other categories (like age), sex and just being plain ole female appears nowhere I can see. Yet all the times I have experienced hate incidents, although homophobia often came in as well, it was always part of it that I was also female. There is a difference between 'f-ing queer' and 'f-ing dyke', can you see what it is children?).

AdultHuman · 29/03/2019 11:25

BBC are over represented by transwomen.

BBC aren't showing the trans resources.

buzzbobbly · 29/03/2019 11:27

People who identify as LGBT

People are IDENTIFYING as Lesbian, Gay or Bisexual now?
Or is the unrelated-to-sexuality-T just steamrollering things as usual?

A puzzler.

LauraMipsum · 29/03/2019 11:37

I thought a hate crime could only have happened if an actual crime has occurred.

That’s right.

AdultHuman · 29/03/2019 11:48

How many police officers are being used to check the public's thinking?

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/28/britains-police-chiefs-leader-sara-thornton-says-she-wants-end-to-blame-culture

Carowiththegoodhair · 29/03/2019 11:56

But even the definition of hate crime as an aggravating factor is contentious.

Say whatisthisfuckery defrauded me of a large sum of money and I was so angry about it that I punched her in the face and called her an “ugly old dyke”.

That could seem like a hate crime but I just might be doing it to be as unpleasant/nasty as possible because I was upset?

(Accepting of course that assault is always a crime and not suggesting it as a remedy for fraud).

UnrelentingFruitScoffer · 29/03/2019 12:11

You all need to watch it. The definition of "hate crime" is expanding every day and even careful, polite discussion of what is and is not a "hate crime" could get you locked up these days.

Best to say nothing and keep safe.

Thingybob · 29/03/2019 12:12

Looking at the 'crime' statistics for my local police force they collect data on non crimes and record them as 'hate incidents' I think other police forces do the same.

nettie434 · 29/03/2019 12:24

I would like to see Whatisthisfuckery’s explanation being sent to all the police forces in the country. Accompanied by a request to make it the official guidance.

R0wantrees · 29/03/2019 12:35

You all need to watch it. The definition of "hate crime" is expanding every day and even careful, polite discussion of what is and is not a "hate crime" could get you locked up these days.

Best to say nothing and keep safe.

Hmm
Fairenuff · 29/03/2019 12:36

People are IDENTIFYING as Lesbian, Gay or Bisexual now?

Yes, this! I've always wondered why trans is included under the umbrella because it is not a sexual orientation. It's nothing to do with being lesbian, gay or bi.

Best to say nothing and keep safe.

Or best to shout out loud and draw attention to it?

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theOtherPamAyres · 29/03/2019 12:39

Came close to a hate crime

These are parents demonstrating their opposition to any information being given to their children about gay and lesbian relationships.

For all we know, they might well have 'come close'.

An example would be a placard with derogatory comments about gay men and lesbians.

It would be a speech to other parents or an interview with the media.

Let's not overlook the fact that some people DO hate gay men and lesbians and stir up trouble against them with lies about perversions and paedophilia.

The police are saying that the law draws a line that cannot be crossed without consequences, and that someone came very close to crossing it. That's OK with me.

Fairenuff · 29/03/2019 12:43

You cannot 'come close' to a crime. It's either criminal or it's not.

I come close to a crime every time I drive to the max speed limit. If I go over it I'm breaking the law, if I don't I'm not. But I'm not 'almost' committing a crime.

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AdultHuman · 29/03/2019 12:45

Have the Birmingham LGBT group signed the petition started by Jonathan Best?

SomeDyke · 29/03/2019 12:48

I'm getting quite cross about how the local community who 'identify' as LGB are supposedly reacting.

Why should they feel more vulnerable? Because some people believe that being gay/gay acts are a sin? This is hardly news folks. The ones there that should be really 'vulnerable' over this issue are, for example, lesbian and gay kids with muslim parents. Or gay muslims ostracized by their community, or somesuch. Not random adults who look as if they are being made to feel 'vulnerable' because someone disagrees with them and has the audacity to say so. In fact, if I were in Birmingham I'd feel obliged to support the parent protests (even though I fundamentally disagree with what they are saying). Because those who are actually effected by this don't have a voice, and those kids need to hear at school at least (if not everywhere else) that actually not everyone thinks being gay is a sin, or that some people they already know (like that nice girls parents) are actually gay. But they can't hear that because those who aren't directly effected by it are getting people's backs up, by acting as if it concerned muslim parents are going out queer-bashing after the demo. Unless the demo are suggesting exactly that, or that gay people deserve to be thrown off buildings (yes, we know about that!) saying, I think being gay is a sin and I don't want my kids to be exposed to that whilst so young that is a legitimate religious belief, and parenting choice, however much I may disagree with it.

Okay, some people think gay sex is unnatural and disgusting. I think straight sex is pretty damn weird, but as regards unnatural, well you really need to look at what slugs get up to! If you want to argue 'unnatural' with me, then bring it on, and we can discuss bonobos. I'd rather have a conversation and respectfully disagree. But linking a group of muslim parents protesting to gay-bashing, and claiming that what they are doing came 'very close' to a crime (and it sounding more like a thought-crime rather than actual violent or threatening protest tactics), is not helping anyone, least of all the lesbian and gay kids growing up in muslim households that ought to be part of our main concern here. Although I will agree that I would not extend the lesbian and gay kids to be kids this young BTW, before anyone misinterprets me, At this age, what more do we need than 'other kids have different parent(s) and different styles of family, you should be respectful, not wary of anyone who just happens to be a bit different to you. Although the very reaction to this protest is sending totally the opposite message, the muslim parents are not being respected, and they know it! Because they see their religion being dismissed as wrongthink.

SomeDyke · 29/03/2019 12:52

"An example would be a placard with derogatory comments about gay men and lesbians."

What, like saying ' gay sex is a sin and you're going to hell! -- hardly news to me and legitimate religious belief (ask the Pope). It's not incitement to violence.

'Derogatory comments' nope, being derogatory isn't a crime (Farage and his followers are all a bunch of stupid numpties derogatory fair enough, but not a crime!) and jolly well shouldn't be!

What was the supposedly derogatory sign you were thinking of?

Fairenuff · 29/03/2019 12:58

We all agree that it's not nice but being 'not nice' is not a hate crime or any kind of crime.

We have the right to religious belief and the freedom to express that. Peaceful protest is not hate crime.

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AdultHuman · 29/03/2019 13:04

I understand that part of the AGP fetish is "Poor me".

The trans teaching pack included in No outsiders, was started in two schools with a high population of Muslims.

One could argue that the LGBT community leaders have behaved in such a way as to start a problem where on the whole people were getting on ok, to facilitate a need in a fetish.

Whatisthisfuckery · 29/03/2019 13:31

Unless someone’s words are inciting violence then I’m rather inclined to take the position that opinions are best off out in the open, where they can be challenged. I say this as someone who has suffered actual crimes motivated by both homophobia and disablism. If a group of Muslim parents think being gay or lesbian is unnatural then that’s up to them. For the sake of their kids the best thing is to allow them to have their protest. Other points of view will be expressed and their kids will be exposed to a range opinions. If they’re shut down it won’t make those unpleasant views go away, it’ll just push them back into the home and the community, where the kids might not hear other points of view.

Personally I really resent being lumped in with LGBT, and having my life co-opted into this authoritarian onslaught. I don’t much care if some rando thinks I’m disgusting, as long as they don’t commit any actual crime because of it. It would also be nice if the police could be relied upon to investigate any actual crimes that are committed, because at the moment I doubt very much I’d even bother reporting, such is the level of woke misogyny displayed by the police. Also I can’t quite fathom why someone would waste the police’s time reporting non-crimes, considering the fact that they won’t turn up if you’ve been mugged or broken into. The more cynical part of me, and it’s a large part, thinks the police only record hate incidents to make it look like they’re actually doing something.

theOtherPamAyres · 29/03/2019 14:06

So, basically, you are all saying that there can never be a hate crime against lesbian and gay people.

That as long as someone has a sincere belief that homosexuality is unnatural, perverted and linked to paedophilia, they can say carry homphobic placards, and make public speeches to incite people to use force against them entering schools?

Are you the same people who want a hate crime of misogyny? Or is it just gay and lesbians that you think should put up with the venom?

You can't come close to committing a crime

Oh yes you can.
That's why police officers say to miscreants: "I'm warning you now....stop doing xxxx. You are this close to being locked up".
It gives people a chance to reflect on their words and behaviour and draw back from the line that the law says cannot be be crossed.

It happens when the police receive information about a plan of action and are able to intervene, warn the organisers that they are in danger of breaking the law, and stop it before it starts.

Fairenuff · 29/03/2019 17:28

So, basically, you are all saying that there can never be a hate crime against lesbian and gay people.

No, we're saying that it can only be a hate crime a if crime has been committed.

If they are using threatening or abusive words or behaviour, that is an actual crime. But they obviously weren't otherwise the Police would not have said that came 'close' to committing a crime when in fact all they were doing was protesting within the bounds of the law.

I don't agree with them, btw. I don't think anyone on this thread does but the point is that police cannot keep changing the definition of what constitutes a crime or a hate crime and applying it willy nilly to different people depending on how they are feeling that day.

It needs to be clearer.

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