IAAF testosterone ruling

[nettie434]

Apparently the IAAF has ruled that women athletes will have testosterone levels tested: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/47690512
Was not expecting that. It is very hard for intersex athletes but it may be the fairest thing. UN has criticised ruling

What is so difficult about chromosome testing? Wouldn’t that be the gold standard?

'The UN called the plans "unnecessary, humiliating and harmful".

IAAF response is excellent:
"The common ground is that we both believe it is important to preserve fair competition in female sport so women are free to compete in national and international sport.
"To do this it is necessary to ensure the female category in sport is a protected category, which requires rules and regulations to protect it, otherwise we risk losing the next generation of female athletes, since they will see no path to success in female sport."

Makes it clear why testing is necessary. In what sense is it 'harmful'? why should it be considered 'humiliating'? It's not a value judgement of a person's character, just an objective measurement of whether they meet a certain criterion necessary for women's sport to exist.

I see that the BBC article talks about 'gender testing'. Talk about missing the bloody point.

They tried that but I think it was seen as too degrading for intersex/DSD athletes. andyoldlabour may be able to explain it as he (hope not misgendering) knows a lot about the subject. I also saw something by Dr FondofBeetles on twitter. Will try to find it and see if she has covered it.

What is so difficult about chromosome testing? Wouldn’t that be the gold standard?

I agree with that but that was stopped as an invasion of privacy, never been entirely sure why.

FFS, test their chromosomes for entry as a female and then testosterone-test them to protect against the women who are doping.

I don't care if you have PCOS, but you should be genetically female at the very fucking least.

(Don't get me wrong, I am happy to hear that they realize testosterone is a performance enhancer and will require levels to be under a certain amount, but still. Semenya is intersex, and I'm sorry but she should not be competing against female athletes even with testosterone blockers or whatever they have her on)

"Invasion of privacy"

ಠ_ಠ

WTF is 'degrading' about chromosome testing? again, it's not a value judgement, it's an objective measure.

WTF is 'degrading' about chromosome testing? confused again, it's not a value judgement, it's an objective measure.

I’m starting to think nothing is degrading about it, but that it was stopped as s deliberate attack on women’s sports.

My cynicism has reached an all time high at this point.

You are going to be on international television, competing at the top level against world-famous athletes for the title of FASTEST/STRONGEST/BEST IN THE WORLD. YOUR PRIVACY IS ALREADY FUCKED.

If it was, I dunno, chromosome testing for any rando on the street who didn't look wo/manly enough, then yeah, that would be a massive invasion of privacy and completely inappropriate.

But to put yourself forward as the fastest runner, strongest lifter, highest jumper, whatever, in a world full of competitive athletes and performance-enhancing drugs, and a world in which the human race is split into two basic groups with vastly different athletic capacity, each of whom have their own category of sport - of course you're gonna be poked and prodded and asked for a blood sample. To whinge about chromosome testing is beyond me.

Given the significant level of drug testing etc that professional athletes are subject to (eg having to be available pretty much any day of the year for random drug tests) I don't see chromosome testing as invasive.
It needs to be made clear that xy people in xx events isn't acceptable at any level though. In a contact sport, because of the risk of injury as well as fairness. Even in a non contact sport, because of fairness.
I am a loooong way off an elite athlete. But I have occasionally won or top 3 in the female category in running events. I train and try hard and would be hacked off to lose to a male bodied person competing as a female even at a purely amateur level.

Chromosome testing doesn't even require a blood sample, does it?

Compare and contrast, for a moment, the assessments needed for Paralympic athletes to make sure they're competing in the correct class.

What levels of testosterone need to be demonstrated? Is it still the ridiculously high level or have they lowered it to just above the top of the normal female range?

The South African Govt have decided this is a racist issue because naturally high T-Levels is a very rare thing but more common in Africa than elsewhere/

The UN Human Rights Council with its fine upstanding membership elected on a rotating buggins turn is beyond satire.

Particularly inappropriate to bring this challenge whilst CAS is still deliberating on the Semenya case.

IAAF have shown backbone unlike WADA, continuing to suspend Russia. They should do the same to the RSA.

I can understand it is pretty annoying for women who are good at sports to then discover that they are intersex, that this gives them an advantage and they get disqualified.

I imagine that many exceptional sportsmen have genetic advantages but they won't have any kind of equivalent test.

Regards privacy, all elite athletes are required to pee into a test tube in front of two witnesses* on a regular basis.

*and the witnesses have to be able to see the urine emerging, and sign to that effect.

There is no ruling, it’s still being challenged in the Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas). The United Nations are just throwing in their two cents’ worth to try and influence. When the IAAF say in response that there are “innacurate statements” I am assuming they mean that it’s not necessarily about testosterone in femaleathletes. We have no confirmation of the sex of Semenya. It’s about testosterone levels in people with disorders of sexual differentiation/intersex.

What levels of testosterone need to be demonstrated? Is it still the ridiculously high level or have they lowered it to just above the top of the normal female range?

5 nanomoles per liter of blood, half what it was before.
Normal female range (including elite athletes) is 0.12 and 1.79 nmols/l

I can understand it is pretty annoying for women who are good at sports to then discover that they are intersex, that this gives them an advantage and they get disqualified

The South African Govt have decided this is a racist issue because naturally high T-Levels is a very rare thing but more common in Africa than elsewhere

With regards to these two things (these points are linked), a teenager growing up in any other part of the world than the poorer part of SA, including those who are promising athletes, will see a doctor and have their DSD diagnosed around the age of 16 when they failed to have a period (pretty standard age for investigation of primary amennorhoea). So I’m sure many promising athletes have given up their dreams at this age because they know it wouldn’t be feasible or fair. It’s also likely that had Semenya grown up white or affluent in South Africa, her medical diagnosis would have been made years ago, prior to a competitive/elite level. Even if DSDs are more common in Africa (I think that is true, there was a link I read once) Semenya’s late diagnosis was down to the persistent inherent racism in the South African health system.

It's not a value judgement of a person's character, just an objective measurement of whether they meet a certain criterion necessary for women's sport to exist.

This ^

Well, Quite.

Contrast all the opportunities afforded to Oscar Pestorius.

Can't see any legless kids from Soweto or Khayelitsha getting the same chances. Probably have to make do with a skateboard.

As far as I can see assassinatedbeauty, IAAF want to reduce it but CAS has yet to report on Caster Semenya's appeal.

RepealtheGRA article in Journal of Medical Ethics said that when they used chromosone testing there was no psychological support for women who discovered they were intersex so there were many examples of athletes becoming incredibly distressed and upset. CAIS women are over represented in athletics so a lot of women were affected by ruling and IOC decided that they should still compete as females. But this is so not my area of expertise but interested that IAAF are going against the argument that trans women lose their advantages when they transition.

"The South African Govt have decided this is a racist issue because naturally high T-Levels is a very rare thing but more common in Africa than elsewhere/"

To be clear, 'naturally high' means 'has testes'.

Various different things have happened, such as:

• intersex (XY) athlete has internal testes but no DHT so genitalia that appear female at birth. In some cases have had testes removed (in last couple of decades)
• intersex (XY) athlete has internal testes but is partially or completely insensitive to testosterone. In this case the issues is there is no way to quantify your sensitivity to testosterone. The vast majority of athletes who have AIS are not completely insensitive - only partly. Essentially a doctor would examine you and say 'you are somewhat virilized' or 'you have no virilization at all'. The latter case is relatively uncontroversial in that they have a female phenotype, but the former case is more so in that if your PAIS is sufficiently weak then you are unambiguously male and have male fertility. But the examining doctors in these cases of athletes with PAIS were basically unwilling to say 'you don't meet the cut-off to be female'.

As I understand it those two DSDs specifically affecting individuals with XY chromosomes constitute all or nearly all of the intersex cases in female sport.

There are many other DSDs, some of which result in 'naturally high testosterone', such as CAH and PCOS, both of which affect people with XX chromosomes, but there is no evidence that either condition is consistent with athletic success.

So basically: yes, we did have chromosome testing in the past (actually NOT for XY, but for the SRY gene, which is a gene on the Y chromosome that can rarely be transposed to the X chromosome, and which is the basic male/female gene), but they were uncovering people who had a female phenotype, but who had XY chromosomes and either infertility, or male fertility.

I don't think there was any desire to kick them out, especially when they did not appear masculine, or were not dominating sport.

The issue currently with the 800m is there are some very XY athletes who are not only not phenotypically female, but also are dominating, and the reaction is not 'oh well, let them compete', but 'we need to do something about it'.

It may be possible to hold that (for example),

• someone who is completely 'immune' to testosterone should be treated as female, despite XY chromosomes, based on their female phenotype, lack of testosterone in their brain, etc.
• but that they should not be allowed to compete in female sport because the Y chromosome carries other genes relating to height etc.

However I don't think we are at that position. What the IAAF are trying to do is something with testosterone levels, in order to avoid making such judgements, but with the goal of excluding non-phenotypically-female athletes from female sport.

"With regards to these two things (these points are linked), a teenager growing up in any other part of the world than the poorer part of SA, "

???

Dutee Chand is from a poor family in India.

Dorcus Ajok is from Uganda www.newvision.co.ug/new_vision/news/1338971/star-athlete-ajok-proud

Margaret Wambui is from Kenya www.sde.co.ke/thenairobian/article/2001275880/800m-sprinter-margaret-nyairera-is-snatching-my-girlfriend-distraught-man

Francine Niyonsaba is from Burundi www.pressreader.com/uk/the-daily-telegraph-sport/20160920/281758448759489

What I meant by that is the fact Semenya grew up in a poor part. If you amend my statement to “a teenager growing up in any other part of the world with access to proper health care other than the poorest part of SA, or similar” that would probably be clearer. I didn’t mean only SA. Your examples prove my point. They all grew up in places where the likelihood of a DSD diagnosis as a teenager is low. You don’t see athletes from the USA, UK etc get to elite senior level with this issue going undiagnosed. I imagine there have been athletes filtered out over the years. Hard to prove though.