IAAF testosterone ruling

[nettie434]

Apparently the IAAF has ruled that women athletes will have testosterone levels tested: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/47690512
Was not expecting that. It is very hard for intersex athletes but it may be the fairest thing. UN has criticised ruling

Sorry, over-bolded there!

I can understand it is pretty annoying for women who are good at sports to then discover that they are intersex, that this gives them an advantage and they get disqualified

Nowadays pretty much all people know if they have an intersex condition by the age of puberty. So they will be already aware.

They've ruled chromosome testing out because they want to allow intersex women and transwomen to compete in women's sport "so long as testosterone levels are below blah blah no other unfair advantages blah blah it's an invasion of privacy otherwise word salad"

I do believe intersex athletes and trans athletes should compete I really do, just not in women's sports. Women's sport should be for women.

Women need to fight against this ruling, and fight for the gold standard, chromosome testing.

It's obvious that the IOC and the IAAF etc are not interested in keeping women's sport for women.
They're deliberately keeping the women's open for everyone, apart from men "who identify as men". They may as well just let all men in.

Sorry I just noticed Notbadconsidering had already replied to the comment I quoted in my first post. Should rtft...

I get the impression the IAAF want to make it fair, but are stuck because they can’t reveal Semenya’s test results to justify their thinking. They’ve then muddled everything by focusing on testosterone which the whole world can see isn’t the only reason for the differences in sport between males and females.

Thanks nettie434 and PalatineUvula

Women in sport have possible man issue.

Easy binary test for man/woman ignored.

Spectrum test (already used to catch doping) jiggled a bit to redefine man/woman definition instead.

Counselling for intersex trauma is really a red herring isn't it?

I'm far from being an expert on this, but wouldn't an x-ray of the pelvic area along with testosterone levels be a fairer test, especially amongst runners?

I've tried to think of a simple test that would include athletes with DSD without being too intrusive. I know it's a lot more complicated than that, though.

Whatever the test it would have the same "intrusive" result though wouldn't it?

nettie434

"may be able to explain it as he (hope not misgendering)"

I am definitely a GC "he/him/human male"

The following is an interesting article, particularly the wording which IMHO is suggesting that any sex testing, particularly of athletes competing as women, is "humiliating".
The Indian sprinter Dutee Chand was suspected of having maculine characteristics - muscle definition, running gait, shoulders etc, but this was only confirmed after a series of tests had been carried out.
It was confirmed that Chand's T levels were above the 10 nm/L, far higher than the norm for women at 1nm/L to 3.3nm/L.
Of course, once the legal teams get involved, as they are with Caster Semenya's case, the waters are going to end up very muddy indeed, with the constant misuse of "sex" and "gender".
Even in the article, they keep talking about "gender testing" when what they really mean is "sex testing".
I have never, ever heard of a scientist in a lab being asked to "gender" a mouse
Once upon a time they used to have "sex tests".
Then they had scans and blood tests.
On the one hand we have "intersex" athletes such as Semenya and Chand, and on the other hand we have transgender (mainly transwomen) athletes, who simply have to self ID, lower their T levels to under 5 nm/L - it was 10nm/L until very recently.
However the transgender athletes say this against the human rights, and in the last couple of days Rachel McKinnon has started referring to themselves as a "female".
If I was in charge of the testing, I think it would be best to use a combination of Testosterone monitoring and Chromozone ID for Intersex athletes, and that transgender athletes should be assigned their own category or compete as the sex they were born.

www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.html

Is it the result that is intrusive though, or the tests? I honestly don't know at this point!

How about including tests for oestrogen levels to determine who is female? Why is the focus solely on the dominant male hormone to determine who is female?

Is it not possible that a modal average ratio of oestrogen : testosterone can be determined and used as a measure?

For the record, UK law determined that sex is defined by chromosomes, gonads and genitals. [Corbett V Corbett 1970]

I just want to say that having internal testes is very different from having polycystic ovaries. I'm not quite sure why one of the posters above brought POS up. Sure there's an unbalance in hormones (that can be regulated with diet and exercise, if you're lucky). As it tends to lead to obesity it's hardly a sporting advantage.

Caster semenya does not have polycystic ovaries.

There seems to be a trend to push POS as some sort of disorder of sexual development (intersex) condition. I've seen trans activists use it to justify arguments a few times now.

I have never seen any health organisations categorise it in that way!

Like trans activists use DSD people to justify their argument, I'm very uncomfortable with them trying to use POS. It's like they are trying to rebrand a whole swathe of women (WHO figures estimate 116 million women worldwide) as somehow not women. I really upsets me when I see them to it.

Sorry for the slight derail but I really wanted to get it off my chest. I see these women struggle with low self esteem every day. They don't get help with electrolysis on the NHS, despite having a proven physical condition. I hate the condition is being used by TRAs.

Sorry all

PCOS is a condition which by definition can only affect women. I can't find any actual numbers, but the elevation in testosterone levels associated with PCOS is typically described as 'slight' or suchlike.

The ‘humiliating’ aspect of the old style sex tests (which were made up of several parts) was a naked parade in front of a panel.

Sharron Davies was competing when this was still in place, which is a pretty good illustration of how much she is willing to personally sacrifice to ensure safe female-only competition.

I’m sure the IOC can find a rule that is better at determining who is actually female than testosterone levels, without having to go back to genital parades.

Chromosomes plus testosterone should be adequate (via a blood test). They can add in the right of (private to the press) case-by-case appeal process for athletes who fail the test due to disorders of sexual development.

The Naked Parade was last used in 1964 before Sharron Daves was born. It was lolly sticks under the tongue until 1996. Testosterone levels from blood samples have been tested since 2000.

...she was two in 1964.

Yes - a simple test applied to all wishing to compete as women, which will pass the vast majority. Those who have anomalous results should then be few enough to be dealt with appropriately, with proper diagnosis and counselling for any who had previously undiagnosed DSDs. The testosterone test is, I assume, standard anyway to prevent doping, a chromosome test can presumably be done from blood or a mouth swab.

The treatment of some intersex people in the past has been pretty appalling, but that should mean learning how to do things better, not giving up on trying to make women's sports fair. I said 'people' rather than 'women' because from a scan through the somewhat long article Andy linked to, at least some of the athletes who were found to be intersex were glad of the diagnosis which showed them to be men.

The IAAF say '....otherwise we risk losing the next generation of female athletes, since they will see no path to success in female sport'

The next female generation in sport are currently teenagers in school struggling to compete against male students who identify as women. Their path is being blocked before they even get to consider going pro.

I’m convinced the only way to preserve women’s sports is.

XX sports and Y sports.

Obviously with better counselling for intersex athletes.

ErrolTheDragon

I am astounded at how the transgender athletes can demand so much, when elite (and even amateur) athletes from all sports, have to jump through hoops in order to compete.
There is the ABP - Athlete Biological Passport, which takes a standard set of results from all athletes and checks on them to detect anomolies - high red cell count for instance, possibly meaning an athlete has taken EPO. It was principally introduced in 2009 and has been amended several times. There is absolutely no reason that this could be amended again to take into account further tests.
In addition to this, we also have random tests, and the whereabouts system, a protocol where athletes are required to produce details of where they will be at all times, so that they may be tested. The ex footballer Rio Ferdinand has fallen foul of this, as have Lizzie Deignan and even Mo Farah and Serena Williams.

www.wada-ama.org/en/athlete-biological-passport

Chand's case is an interesting one. There's two types of androgen insensitivity, partial and complete. (NB no- one outside the people adjudicating on these cases and the individuals' doctors actually knows the medical details, and quite rightly so, so I will try to remember to use "it is thought".)

It is thought that Castar Semenya suffers from PAIS -she naturally produces testosterone in excess of the 10nmol/l limit and can metabolise it to build muscle. Hence the initial official ruling was that she should take androgen inhibitors. It appears that she did so for a number of years and her performance during this period, while good, was not "unbeatable".

It is thought that Duttee Chand suffers from CAIS - she produces T in excess of the limit but lacks the receptors to process it into additional muscle. For all practical purposes therefore her raised T confers no advantage. She therefore argued (at least we think this is what the argument was) that forcing her to take androgen suppressants to lower her T below an arbitrary limit (putting her at risk of side effects from the unnecessary medication) was a human rights abuse.

Her case was judged to have merit and the limit was lifted, not just for her but for all athletes whatever form of androgen insensitivity they suffered from. It is thought that this is what led to the top three places in the Rio 800m (not Chand - she's a 100m runner) being scooped by athletes widely believed to have PAIS.

Note that in and of itself this has nothing to do with trans athletes who are not intersex but genotypically and phenotypically normal members of the male sex, who happen to sincerely believe they ought to have been born female and who feel more comfortable presenting according to the stereotypes society ascribes to women. Which is a very complicated issue for them and the rest of society, but should not be conflated with the issues intersex individuals have to face.

This is an interesting expression of the experience of an autogynephilic male about why some of these males are demanding access to women's sports:

I am definitely a GC "he/him/human male" grin

Thanks for the confirmation and the link andyoldlabour. I didn't want to misgender you.

I see these women struggle with low self esteem every day. They don't get help with electrolysis on the NHS, despite having a proven physical condition.

I don't think this is even a slight derail katvonmythicbionicwoman. There are real problems of equity in terms of access to treatment. As well as women with polycystic ovary syndrome wanting help with hair removal, access to breast surgery or reconstruction for women is now more restricted. The question of competing rights is uncomfortable but needs addressing in both sport and health care.