I was mildly GC in front of my mates today. Holy moley, this has gone further than I realised.

[LeesPostersAreInFrames]

I have a hobby group of friends, we met up today. The hobby attracts left wing types, of which I am one.

The subject of LGBT+ came up, and after a bit the subject of gendered toilets and changing rooms came up. I expressed that I felt women's spaces should be strictly for women only.

One friend said that the toilets in almost all of the schools, colleges and universities in the area had been changed to non-gender specific.

Another said that their training in several fashion retail spaces had been to allow a person to use the gendered changing room of their choice. There was a "larger" changing area (not allowed to say disabled), which they could offer to trans people, but they could go in the gendered room they felt most comfortable in. I asked what happened if anybody ever complained; they were trained to say they were sorry but policy was to allow people to use the space they felt most comfortable in. These spaces had curtains but they'd had problems previously with mobile phone cameras being used.

The girls in the schools had expressed discomfort at boys being able to hear the rustle of sanitary wear wraps as they used them.

My friends seemed surprised at my views, and I didn't go any further. I'm not really sure how to have these conversations, but it seems utterly essential and urgent.

It's in the UK, and it's much more widespread than I had thought.

Help. How do I get people questioning this stuff?

I’m not obsessed by single sex lavatories - we share on planes happily enough. I want clean lavatories. I don’t believe men can become women.
One school I was a governor of rebuilt lavatories that were mixed sex a long time ago to reduce children (girls in particular) hanging around and missing lessons. They had a problem with groups of bullying girls in the lavatories making it horrid for some other girls.
The rebuild was a completely open hand washing area - directly opposite the school reception, one opposite the sixth form common room and another opposite the staff room. The PE changing rooms had single sex provision still.
Off the hand washing areas were individual cubicles with floor to ceiling enclosure and a locking door. Classical music was played to discourage lingering and cover lavatorial sounds. They did away with mirrors as they found girls we’re spending ages doing makeup instead of maths. There was more incidental adult supervision than there had been previously.
What the school found was a reduced incidence of bullying reports, less sanctions for being out of lessons and a positive cultural change. I think it can be done but needs careful thought and proper resourcing.

I’m not obsessed by single sex lavatories - we share on planes happily enough

Toilets on planes are single cubicles with full facilities enclosed provided for the use of everyone on the plane. THey are single occupancy.

I went to a mixed sex bathroom at a bar/restaurant a week ago and there was a large man in there not apparently using the facilities, who made extremely sexually aggressive comments to me. We were the only two people in there and it was in the basement quite a way from anyone else. He was standing right by the only open cubicle and said things about what he wanted to do which did not imply he required consent. It was frightening, I waited in the cubicle for some time as I could still hear him outside the door. Luckily a staff member came in in the end and he left. I reported it and the place have taken it seriously but I'm not sure they got the issue with unisex toilets so much.

It is not even about which bathroom a transgender woman or man uses, the now common use of unisex toilets opens the way for predatory males to behave like this.

It is not even about which bathroom a transgender woman or man uses, the now common use of unisex toilets opens the way for predatory males to behave like this.

Mixed sex toilets do not provide the safety, dignity and privacy that girls and women need and are entitled to.

Male pattern behaviour eg voyeurism, sexual assault is sex based.

Last year two young girls (aged 10 & 12) were assaulted by a young male (aged 17) in the women's toilets in supermarkets.

The dad of one of the girls had waited outside (as many fathers, uncles, brothers, grandads etc would do) in the reasonable expectation that the toilets were single sex.

Dolatowski, the male offender 'identified'as a woman.

The details of the assaults against the two young girls are horrific.

transcrimeuk.com/2019/02/02/katie-dolatowski/

MumUnderTheMoon - Also I feel like "women only safe spaces" aren't magical lands, if a man is determined to get in he only has to open a door after all. All spaces should be safe spaces.
That's a nice thought, but they are not safe spaces if men cannot be chucked out of them. Perhaps we should wait until men have stopped raping and killing us before we change the rules.
Meanwhile - I was happy to see that in the real world, sanity often prevails. I was wandering in the direction of the gents in a pub yesterday. The Landlord stopped me, saying 'you don't want to go in there!' and told me where the Ladies was.

Also I feel like "women only safe spaces" aren't magical lands, if a man is determined to get in he only has to open a door after all

There are no Safeguarding frameworks which absolutely eradicate risk.

We do not remove them all on this basis.

@R0wantrees I'm not saying that isn't an issue, I'm saying even leaving aside the question of whether a transgender woman uses the woman's toilets or not, the use of unisex toilets opens up a whole other problem too.

It never used to be a problem to tell a man to GTFO if he was in the ladies loos.

You cant do that now without being a bigot and risk being reported to the police for hate crime and literal violence.

Please note the difference:

unisex denotes a self-contained, single occupancy toilet with sink included, with a door opening onto a corridor (such as the plane toilet)

mixed-sex denotes a toilet facility that is for the use of more than one person at the same time. These facilities have two or more cubicles, with lockable doors, often with gaps at the top and bottom of the cubicle. And they have a separate wash area with one or more sink outside of the cubicles in a shared area.

gender neutral is the euphemism used for mixed-sex facilities where the fact that males and females are sharing is meant to be obscured.

Yeah but women and girls weren’t asking for mixed sex toilets neither were men and boys

There wasn’t a huge outcry for this

So who was pushing for this ?

Ooh gender neutral toilets

leonasa yes I understood your point

As discussed upthread, there is a need for clear language.

The issue of intimate spaces is sex-based, just as the wider issue is male sex-based violence.

Thanks CharlieParley

fascinating & important speech by Clara Greed, Professor of Inclusive Urban Planning specialist in toilet provision with particular emphasis upon women's needs.

Definitely worth watching:
A Woman's Place is to be heard (Clara Greed, Bath, 1st November 2018)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD92aLqgtTA

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3427591-WPUK-Bath-fascinating-important-speech-by-Clara-Greed-Professor-of-Inclusive-Urban-Planning-specialist-in-toilet-provision-with-particular-emphasis-upon-womens-needs

RepealtheGRA that wasn't directed at you or anyone else specifically. In this debate so much language is used to obscure facts that I think we can't repeat the accurate definitions often enough.

As a PP showed above, many people may think of the plane toilet when we discuss mixed-sex toilets, because they think this refers to the fact that such one-person-loos are for use by both sexes. Besides possible cleanliness issues, there isn't anything wrong with unisex toilets, so they often don't see the problem. They may think we're making a fuss about nothing and are rejecting a perfectly sensible gender neutral solution, when most of us approve of the approach that sees unisex facilities added to existing single-sex provisions in order to accommodate those who do not wish to use the facilities of their own sex.

Help. How do I get people questioning this stuff?

Just keep being honest and open about how you see the situation. People ned to be aware that there are views outside of the echo chamber and that these views are O.k. Once people feel they can say what they really think, then others will follow suit.

So people should use the place they feel most comfortable in? Great! O right, except if those people are women or girls.

I'm in a similar position OP. Have been trying the reasonable/softly softly approach but getting progressively more angry

If you are on other social media RT sharron davies who sets out the sports arguments clearly.

My woke friends wouldn't be impressed by Rod Liddle (tho I'm glad he's spoken up) but this Guardian article references that it is/was child sterilisation & castration. Share this, some may read it & it plants more seeds, even if you never go on to specifically discuss it.
www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/20/catholic-journalist-investigated-by-police-after-misgendering-trans-woman