I was mildly GC in front of my mates today. Holy moley, this has gone further than I realised.

[LeesPostersAreInFrames]

I have a hobby group of friends, we met up today. The hobby attracts left wing types, of which I am one.

The subject of LGBT+ came up, and after a bit the subject of gendered toilets and changing rooms came up. I expressed that I felt women's spaces should be strictly for women only.

One friend said that the toilets in almost all of the schools, colleges and universities in the area had been changed to non-gender specific.

Another said that their training in several fashion retail spaces had been to allow a person to use the gendered changing room of their choice. There was a "larger" changing area (not allowed to say disabled), which they could offer to trans people, but they could go in the gendered room they felt most comfortable in. I asked what happened if anybody ever complained; they were trained to say they were sorry but policy was to allow people to use the space they felt most comfortable in. These spaces had curtains but they'd had problems previously with mobile phone cameras being used.

The girls in the schools had expressed discomfort at boys being able to hear the rustle of sanitary wear wraps as they used them.

My friends seemed surprised at my views, and I didn't go any further. I'm not really sure how to have these conversations, but it seems utterly essential and urgent.

It's in the UK, and it's much more widespread than I had thought.

Help. How do I get people questioning this stuff?

Ahh yes, men are so much more advanced in countries such as England:

www.scotsman.com/news/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-on-girl-say-campaigners-1-4868945

(Ah, sorry, that's Scotland, and you said England Sloth. It must be the English men who have such different attitudes. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk )

Lol. I think you underestimate the extent of misogyny across the west.

Not at all. Maybe you should change who you are mixing with if you see it as common. I know some shit men, one being my father. My mum shared your view about misogyny.

Hey UK women. Men seem to be behaving in toilets, (maybe because they've been clearly single-sex for fucking years) in the UK.

Meanwhile, we're all campaigning for single-sex facilities in 'those other countries' where men don't behave.

So men, given that your attitudes seem to be magically different from 'those other countries' we'd like to invite you to join us in mixed-sex toilets, just in case you think we're a bit odd/fixated in peeing in peace/genitals/blah blah blah.

What could go wrong eh? It's just in those 'other countries' that men's attitudes seem to be different!

There are many, many things in places like India which are different to England which make them more unsafe to women. If you are pretending otherwise to suit your argument, I give up.

Yes, absolutely, SleepingSloth. There are many places across the globe where being female is far more dangerous than in the UK. (Incidentally, across Europe, the UK is one of the more dangerous places.)

However, less dangerous does not mean women and girls are safe in the UK. Safer? Yes. Safe? No. We have high levels of violence against women and girls, and that is despite the existence of near universal provision of the female-only facilities the UN is trying to build in the poorest countries.

The move to abolish our safe spaces, which have enabled many more women to take part in public life is a relatively new phenomenon. We have one recent UK data set showing that women were at a 900% higher risk in mixed-sex changing rooms compared with single-sex ones. As the move to deny females their basic human right to privacy, dignity and safety is still relatively new and data always lags behind, we're only just starting to see the impact this is having.

But there is one area where we can show the damage mixed-sex spaces can do.

And that's menstruation. We have data on how the lack of female-only facilities in poorer countries affects girs' school participation in education. The same effect can be observed in the UK, although that, too is a relatively new phenomenon.

I think the problem is that it all sounds utterly mental (e.g. ‘Cotton Ceiling’. WTF?)

People imagine Trans as being old-school gay transsexuals. This new breed are utterly menacing and people don’t realise. And when you try to educate them, it all sounds so unbelievable.

People imagine Trans as being old-school gay transsexuals. This new breed are utterly menacing and people don’t realise. And when you try to educate them, it all sounds so unbelievable

Read this:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007?pg=4&order=

yes, cloven, and others. Unresourced and corrupt. Not under resourced. Really a lot lot worse than here. You are showing your world view is very limited.

I am not arguing for a race to the bottom.

But it hurts my head that people who are arguing for their rights not to be superseded by other’s needs fail to recognise that the problem with violence against women is on a different scale in some other countries.

Men in the UK not being as rapey as men in other countries is not really a positive thing.

Its definitely not a reason to remove sex-segregated facilities.

No, grimples I completely agree.

Target focussed policy makers, however, have it keener in their sights in some parts of the world.

No, grimples I completely agree.

It’s wonderful that you agree that protections for women such as single sex spaces, which as discussed contribute to the level of sexual violence being lower in this country than in some developing countries, should be preserved.

But in that case what are you arguing about, exactly? Since we all agree those spaces need to be preserved it seems like an ego-derail.

But pretty much all women in the UK have
experienced multiple incidents of street harassment which often starts young. 1 in 4 (I think) are raped and god knows how much sexual assault. There is a well publicised reluctance to investigate /disinterest in sex offences committed against girls over puberty. Men still wank at girls in the street etc.

The idea that because women somewhere have it worse means we can ignore all this and declare 'our' men safe is ludicrous and yes racist.

I have a couple of (female) friends in big cities in India and they get really irritated with the way the county is presented. It is massive and the cities way different to rural areas.

But it hurts my head that people who are arguing for their rights not to be superseded by other’s needs fail to recognise that the problem with violence against women is on a different scale in some other countries.

This. But it's easier to just say this is racist. It's not, it's fact.

Oh god, I remember being a teenager and desperately hiding tampons in my pocket to ferry to the toilets. At least once there you could relax, but not anymore.

Why is a man’s comfort more important than a woman’s? Why do they attack us for wanting a separate space? Why can’t people just use the toilet most suited for their genitalia? I guess that makes too much sense

"Sexual harassment of women and girls in public places inquiry
Inquiry status: open awaiting Government response.
Report published 23 October 2018

Summary:
Sexual harassment pervades the lives of women and girls and is deeply ingrained in our culture. This report, which follows the Committee’s reports on schools and workplaces, focuses on sexual harassment in public places: on public transport, in bars and clubs, in online spaces and at university, in parks and on the street; it is a routine and sometimes relentless experience for women and girls, many of whom first experience it at a young age."

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/women-and-equalities-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/sexual-harassment-public-places-17-19/

"I know I’m missing the point, but what hobby attracts left wing types?"

Making homemade unisex toilets signs to super glue to random toilet doors?

I’ve not yet been able to articulate why I don’t like mixed spaces.

The best I can come up with is that a trans woman is not a woman in the same way that I am.

Or better yet give us individual cubicles. The only reason for open spaces is because it’s cheaper for business.

I’ve not yet been able to articulate why I don’t like mixed spaces.

Women & girls need single sex spaces for safety, dignity & privacy.

It seems to me that schools could offer both gender specific and gender neutral spaces. Most schools have more than one set of toilets after all. Also plenty of toilets and changing rooms have stalls which are full hight if these became more commonly used it might help. Also I feel like "women only safe spaces" aren't magical lands, if a man is determined to get in he only has to open a door after all. All spaces should be safe spaces. I think we need to refocus our efforts on that.

If schools offer unisex spaces to students against laws, guidelines and basic common sense, then they will be responsible for any incidents that occur as a result and be liable to be sued.

It seems to me that schools could offer both gender specific and gender neutral spaces. Most schools have more than one set of toilets after all.

THese would be single sex and mixed sex toilets & changing rooms?

WPUK
Mixed sex toilets in schools
We have been contacted by parents whose children’s schools are introducing mixed sex (often described as ‘gender neutral’ toilets) often removing the girls’ facilities to do so. There have been several news stories reporting this trend including in Brighton, London and Warrington.

Terms
Despite its prevalence, the term ‘gender neutral’ is widely contested. In practice, the creation of ‘gender neutral’ provision often favours one set of people over another. For example, where toilets are converted to ‘gender neutral’ provision, it is often the women’s or girls’ toilets that are used. The term ‘gender neutral’ ignores the different needs of women and girls.

We prefer to use the term ‘mixed-sex’ as this better represents the reality of the situation. (continues)

The responsibility of schools in England
Schools must provide separate sex provision for children over 8 as outlined in the Schools Premises Regulations (2012). The guidance is quite clear on this.

In June 2018, the Department of Education reissued guidance from the Department of Education on the responsibilities of school in relation to ‘gender separation’.

Paragraph 13 clearly states:

“It is permissible for toilet and boarding accommodation facilities to be separate as they are captured under existing statutory exceptions. Separate toilet and washing facilities must be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and over pursuant to Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012, which falls within the exemption provided for in Schedule 22 of the Equality Act 2010.” (continues)

womansplaceuk.org/mixed-sex-toilets-ins-chools/