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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caroline's Mail on Sunday Piece is Out

59 replies

ClingFilmApplications · 24/03/2019 04:13

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6843269/How-hate-crime-officers-came-knocking-door-devout-Catholic.html

I think the paper edition may have more, as the online version doesn't appear to have this graphic

Caroline's Mail on Sunday Piece is Out
OP posts:
hackmum · 24/03/2019 10:41

It's really significant that they've highlighted the role of West Yorkshire police in this. I have the feeling that the net is starting to close in both on WYP and Mermaids, especially with Liddle's very forthright attack today.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/03/2019 10:44

The belief that you cannot change sex has nothing to do with Catholicism!

This is true, but scientific facts are sadly not protected by law in the same way that beliefs are...

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/03/2019 10:45

Yes, why hasn't Jackie said anything about this? They are 27 years old (so perfectly capable of speaking for themselves without their mum) and a big part of the subject of these tweets.

I think that Jackie should be left out of this. It is something that was done to them as a child, and it has always been SG seeking publicity.

frazzled1 · 24/03/2019 11:04

Well done for getting this issue out into the open Caro.

I was particularly Hmm at:

The next day, Ms Green withdrew her complaint because she said she did not want to give Mrs Farrow a public 'platform'. Instead of contacting police, she announced her decision on a television show.

Really, that's why the complaint was withdrawn? Nothing to do with how the wider public would perceive Susie G and what she had done to her child? Don't know what tv show they mean but surely Susie G should have informed her chums in WYP first?

The silence from Jackie G is deafening.

I am allowed to think this.... aren't I WYP?....

nauticant · 24/03/2019 11:04

It won't be the first or last time that Susie Green's interests come before Jackie Green's.

AssassinatedBeauty · 24/03/2019 11:06

I'm definitely not calling on Jackie to get involved nor would I expect others to shift their focus to Jackie. My point was simply that Susie is not the "victim" here, if there ever was a crime anyway.

teawamutu · 24/03/2019 11:08

Excellent article, Caro. And I'm really glad the complete inaction over your reports of stalking has been aired. Don't suppose there's been any movement on that?

AstonishedFemalePersonator · 24/03/2019 11:11

The silence from Jackie G is deafening.

Please do not drag Jackie into this.

HorsewithnoBackstop · 24/03/2019 11:12

I believe that the thoughts and feelings of the child would be of paramount importance. And have a huge bearing on the situation.

Imagine if the child announced a detransition.

Never thought in a million years that I'd say - I agree with Rod Liddle..

BarbieJellyBabyBrain · 24/03/2019 11:16

No I wasn't literally calling on Jackie to say anything, they don't owe anything to anyone. I was just making an observation really.

OrchidInTheSun · 24/03/2019 11:19

I note that Susie has changed her story of late. In her TED X talk In 2017 she said "At six years old she kept asking me 'when can I have the operation to make me a girl?' and it was really hard for me as a parent to watch the devastation when I told her she'd have to wait until she was a grown-up"

Last year, when she was interviewed for the Butterfly tv show launch, it was: "Terror quickly turned to denial for Susie and her husband Tim. Over and over again, they told Jack it was fine to be a boy who liked girlie things – but that didn’t make him a girl. But Jack just kept telling them that was not who he was."

She never told Jack it was fine to be a boy who liked girlie things, she told him that he could have an operation when he grew up.

frazzled1 · 24/03/2019 12:31

Was also absolutely not calling on Jackie G to say anything nor have their views sought in any way whatsoever, should have made that very clear.

Just can't help noticing no public support of their mother being offered by Jackie, someone who has previously been in the press, that's all.

hipsterfun · 24/03/2019 12:32

In her TED X talk In 2017

Can video content be archived?

OrchidInTheSun · 24/03/2019 13:07

Not on normal archive sites I don't think hipster. But good point - I've downloaded it in case it mysteriously disappears ...

hipsterfun · 24/03/2019 13:23

Well done. It’s important that the changing story is evidenced.

PippaPepperpot · 24/03/2019 13:56

And how does a six year old know an operation is even a possibility? Because an adult has told them so.

2rebecca · 24/03/2019 16:09

My son liked a lot of girlie stuff when age 6 and at primary school played mainly with girls as he was quite a gentle boy. If he'd mentioned wanting to be a girl he would have been told firmly by both parents that that was impossible and that it was OK for boys to have a wide range of interests and toys. His dad and I did similar jobs and had similar hobbies and both shared housework so he probably saw that men weren't that different from women in what you could actually do in your life anyway.
He became noticably more masculine when puberty hit in. Puberty blockers just stop the normal development of children and I think should be seen as child abuse.

JellySlice · 24/03/2019 17:36

Yes, why hasn't Jackie said anything about this? They are 27 years old (so perfectly capable of speaking for themselves without their mum)

Are they? Or are they more like 14yo as a result of their puberty bring screwed up so that they haven't had the chance to mature properly? Sad

EntenteCordiale · 24/03/2019 18:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 18:42

Last year, when she was interviewed for the Butterfly tv show launch, it was: "Terror quickly turned to denial for Susie and her husband Tim. Over and over again, they told Jack it was fine to be a boy who liked girlie things – but that didn’t make him a girl. But Jack just kept telling them that was not who he was."

Its worth watching the documentary about Jackie Green wanting to win beauty pageants. It was filmed when Jackie was 18 (I think)

In it Susie Green describes the horror /embarassment /shame (?) she felt when her young son went into shops, headed for the sections with girls clothes and obviously enjoyed the clothes there. Susie Green describes being concerned about what people 'must' be thinking.

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 18:55

Also from the documentary above it is important to be aware of the role that Dr Spack played in influencing and impacting both Susie & Jackie Green.

He has talked about how he deliberately prescribed cross sex hormone so that Jackie would not reach her natural height.

He is seen talking with Jackie Green and thanking her as she has helped his work. Susie Green also talks about how Dr Spack absolutely affirmed her child's belief at a very difficult time for the family & how important this relationship was.

His influence on the family as well as Mermaids charity is considerable and seems yet to gain much attention

From Daily Mail 2016:
'The woman who used to be a boy is now at the heart of a controversy over children as young as nine given drugs to change sex'
(extract)
"Scientific research on the impact of the hormone treatments on a young body is sparse. Some parents nevertheless ignore the NHS age rules and buy the hormones online or take their child to private clinics in the UK, the U.S., Holland or Germany.

Helen Webberley, a GP in Wales, has set up a gender clinic where a ‘handful’ of children have been put on cross-sex hormones, including a 12-year-old boy who was born a girl. According to Dr Webberley, this child had been on ‘blockers’ since the age of nine and did not want to wait until 16 to bring on his male puberty.

"The evangelist-in-chief for early medical intervention is 73-year-old Dr Norman Spack, a paediatric endocrinologist at the Boston Children’s Hospital in America. He is also the guiding light of Mermaids and a friend of both Susie Green and Dr Webberley.

He wants children who identify as transgender to routinely be given hormone-blocking drugs around the onset of puberty, and then move to high doses of hormones to change their sex, after which they can consider surgery.

The Spack philosophy is that age limits are arbitrary and often cruel. ‘Why wait?’ is his mantra. He says he has put ‘about 200 children’ onto hormone blockers, and claims 100 per cent have gone on to take cross-sex hormones because ‘no one changes their mind’

But other medics, such as Dr James Barrett, a consultant psychiatrist at London’s Charing Cross gender identity clinic, warns of the dangers of starting irreversible treatment too early."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3973036/Jackie-Green-heart-controversy-children-young-nine-given-drugs-change-sex.html

There is a clip somewhere (not sure if it was the TedTalk?)of Susie Green in conversation with Dr Spack where he happily talks of deliberately restricting Jackie Green's height because she would have been 'too tall' for a woman.

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 21:27

Yorkshire Post Interview with Susie Green:

(extract)
“Oh good God yes,” she says. “I’ll be quite honest, if I could have had a choice I would have liked to have had a son who was completely heterosexual. Because I feared for her future. I wasn’t horrified by the prospect of her being a girl – although I did find it extremely difficult to come to terms with - I just knew how hard things life be for her.

“When she was such a girly boy from such an early age I even started hoping she might grow out of it and it might turn out that I had a gay son. I think I must have been one of the few parents who was actually praying I had a gay son. But you could see from about the age of three it wasn’t just the toys she played with it was as much as the way she played with them."

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/health/from-jack-to-jackie-why-i-had-sex-change-at-16-1-4018711

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 21:43

ibid

“But initially her dad just said: ‘I’m not having this’ and when she was aged about four he insisted we have a go at trying to stop her having anything girly. She had a few dolls which were put away. That lasted for about six weeks because she just disappeared into herself – she couldn’t even play with her cousins’ girl toys when she went round there. “It wasn’t my idea and I didn’t like it. She got depressed and would sit watching TV, not talking. She didn’t want to do anything. Then one day I found her hiding in a cupboard on the telephone.

My mum had called to see what she wanted for her birthday or Christmas or something and she was whispering ‘Can you buy me a Barbie and keep it at your house so I can play with it?’ And at this point I thought: ‘This is just not on’ because I realised I was battering her self-esteem and basically vilifying her as a person.”

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 22:22

2105 Interview with Susie Green for Day Nurseries

(extract)
“I first realised Jackie was different when she was 18 months old,” says her mum Susie Green.

"Although she was my first child, I had lots of nephews and nieces and Jackie just didn’t seem to behave like them.

“She’d go into my wardrobe, put on dresses and she even put my bra on at 18 months.

“The nursery staff were telling me Jackie was different when she went there at two and a half years old.”

Cross-dressing in the dressing up box

At nursery Jackie never played with the boys, always took a female role in the games played and would treat the soft toys like babies or pretend to have tea with them.

“She couldn’t wait to get into the dressing up box. She’d come out as Snow White with a jumper on her head and the arms trailing down to make it look like she had long hair.” (continues)

www.daynurseries.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1571947/Transgender-children-How-nurseries-can-support-those-with-gender-identity-issues

LizzieSiddal · 24/03/2019 23:31

Rowan the quotes from your last post are just horrific.

They need to be widely publicised, anyone so breathtakingly stupid should not be allowed anywhere near a children’s charity