Single sex spaces

[Skittlesss]

I expressed concern about single sex spaces on the current trans-related “pronouns” thread on AIBU. One person has said “I think you can solve the toilet problem by not letting anyone in the cubical with you. I hope that helps.”
This doesn’t help though. I still don’t want to think a man is in there with us.
I don’t know how to explain it without people making me out to be the bad guy. Surely it’s ok to want to have no penises in female changing rooms?

You could point out the risk of crimes like using phones to record under/over doors increases in mixed sex facilities. Similarly the risk of hidden cameras.

That’s what is in my mind assassinated beauty. The risk of that happened would be greater increased if anyone who said “I am a woman” is allowed into the female toilets etc.

If it doesn't matter who is in the next cubicle, why are male transpeople so determined to be in female spaces?

Smirking bloke waiting and listening for you to pee.

Blokes stalking the sanitary bins to take whatever you just put in there, and the wetter and still warm the better, putting them on and walking around in them for the thrill. Show your lovely, sensitive, empathic person some of the stuff from the forum about putting your used tampon up his bum.

Show them the one about the self identified teenager in Scotland who recently shoved a teenaged girl into the cubicle and tried to make her take her trousers off to assault her.

Talk about women with trauma histories, the 1 in 4 women who were sexually assaulted by a male before the age of 20, women with disabilities not able to prioritise other people's realities or not see what's in front of them without becoming panicked and distressed, older women, women with cultures and faiths that say they cannot toilet or undress in the presence of a male. And the many, many women who will not feel comfortable to pull their pants down or get in a shower with someone they perceive as male on the other side of a flimsy door. Usually because of their life experience of males and their pattern recognition skills, not because of random prudery, so it's extremely rude/insensitive/oblivious/thick of this person to just dismiss all women not happy about this as being silly.

There's no way to be all woke about this bullshit without basically saying, all men's right to use whatever facility makes them happy is more important than the safety, privacy, dignity and access (never mind happiness) of all women. And it's fine to exclude women from all facilities so that males can have more options.

If you believe that, you believe that people with penises are more important than people with ovaries. And there's a word for that.

Outside toilets at in tu shopping centre overheard a young man saying he could say he's non binary and use the women's toilets. Not slightest indication he is anything other than young male. Why bother with sex specific toilets at all?

Knickknack, those are some of the thoughts in my head (and now I have more because I didn’t even think about the sanitary towels etc!). I do tend to panic a bit, but I just don’t feel right about it all

Many, many women won't be ok with this, Skittless You'd think that people who wish to identify as women would care about women's issues, feelings and perspectives on this, particularly since they talk so much about inclusion and intersectionality.

Look at the state of men's toilets, they are much more of a mess that female ones. And smelly. That's one (just 1 or many) of the reasons I do not want mixed facilities.

One thing that gets missed about single sex toilets is that it is frequently a place for women to get away from the male gaze.

Whether that's hitching your skirt up and checking the ladder in your tights at work, chatting with your mates about who you fancy at a night club while you reapply your lippy or just not feeling concerned about how you look and whether you're smiling enough when you're out and about. It's not an obvious thing. But many women relax when they enter a female only space, and this is part of why. Transwomen may or may not apply the male gaze to women, but if those transwomen don't "pass", women are still going to feel the pressure of it.

The other thing that occurs to me is that by doing away with single sex toilets is that it’s basically eroding away at women’s rights to a female only space. So now it’s like they are saying that the rights of men are trumping those of women. Or at least that’s what it’s saying to me.

I have a bit of a problem with an argument that women have some kind of innate right to single sex spaces. I absolutely get single sex spaces to ensure safety or to enable women to be heard, given the way they are often drowned out i our society. But just a plain right to single sex spaces without a reason that is about enabling equality doesn't sit well with me. Men have used single sex spaces to block women out for a long time, breaking down their "right" to do that has been a huge part of feminism's work over time.

Men still have single sex spaces. Plenty of them.

No right to single sex spaces?

No right to meet apart from / without the supervision of men?

The fact that you find it a revolutionary idea says that you don't really believe women should want to/be allowed to exclude men.

Assinated I know. And it's often really problematic.

I don't think it's problematic for men to have men only spaces for privacy, dignity and so on. So hospitals, changing, toilets etc. I have no issue with men meeting to discuss male cancers, or male fertility issues, or similar.

The equality act talks about the proportionate reasons for single sex spaces. They exist; of course there are illegitimate reasons for single sex spaces and those should be and are contested. However, the right of women to assemble as women, without men present, has also been part of feminism's work from its earliest inception.

Maybe ask them then why UNESCO are campaigning for the importance of single-sex toilet facilities for girls around the world

(just not needed in the 'woke' countries eh? Just 'some' men need excluding from women's toilets, in just 'some' countries? Hmm)

twitter.com/MrHenryWimbush/status/976595336465731584 (I miss Mr Wimbush!)

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/single-sex-toilets-unesco-un-international-womens-day-period-a8244776.html

As per the Wimbush thread, spycams are increasingly being found in mixed-sex toilets (whilst it's still possible for a man to place a spycam in a female-only space, it's sooo much easier to do so if you've already been given open access to be in that space, on your own).

Knicknackpaddyflak I assume that's aimed at me, though I didn't say and I don't think, single sex spaces are revolutionary. If anything, I think they're reactionary.

I don't particularly want to exclude men, in general, no. The idea that the government should allow sex discrimination in civil life (private life is a very different matter) without justification seems totally at odds with what I've always wanted feminism to achieve.

I definitely acknowledge the need for single sex spaces for some things in order to make opportunity and support available to all. But there are reasons for them that pertain to the availability or suitability of opportunity and support. Hopefully, over time, the need for some of them will disappear (not all because - biology).

Assiniated that's not single sex without reason and I have no problem with those sorts of groups either. Perhaps I'm just talking at cross purposes here.

*Assassinated. not Assinated. Sorry. That's an unfortunate typo that I really did not mean.

I would always expect a single sex space where biology is relevant, as per the examples that I gave. Even in any future paradise where there is no discrimination or crime against women, I would still expect privacy and dignity to be reasons for single sex spaces.

What kind of government backed/civil life single sex spaces do you think are unjustified?

I think you can solve the toilet problem by not letting anyone in the cubical with you. I hope that helps.

As I get older and less able, how do I stop a man forcing their way into the cubicle? How do the young girls I know stop men forcing their way into cubicles?

Whoever made that remark, OP, has no experience of vulnerability. Or very little empathy.

What kind of government backed/civil life single sex spaces do you think are unjustified?

A few examples - I think members clubs are generally unjustified, though some may have a purpose that does justify them. I have big concerns about single-sex schools (which I know can be used to provide opportunity and support that is lacking in mixed schools, but that isn't how many of them work in practice and more recent research brings in to question the idea that girls schools, on average, do better over mixed sex schools in terms of exam results). I was also perturbed by the refusal of the barber to cut a woman's hair that I read about on here a day or two back, that seems unjustified; I don't know if it was supported in law, though.

The question that always needs to be asked is this:

Why are these men demanding access to girls and women?

Private members clubs are part of the old boys network, and definitely not something that I would want to continue. But legally it is difficult I think because they are private clubs.

Single sex schools, in an ideal world wouldn't be necessary for girls but we're nowhere near that yet.

Barbers, well, I'm not an expert but I think there is an issue over what they are trained to do. And possibly insurance? Either way, it's not a massive issue that needs addressing.