Single sex spaces

[Skittlesss]

I expressed concern about single sex spaces on the current trans-related “pronouns” thread on AIBU. One person has said “I think you can solve the toilet problem by not letting anyone in the cubical with you. I hope that helps.”
This doesn’t help though. I still don’t want to think a man is in there with us.
I don’t know how to explain it without people making me out to be the bad guy. Surely it’s ok to want to have no penises in female changing rooms?

It is generally axiomatic that oppressed groups have the right to meet, socialise and organise separate from their oppressors. For reasons that should be obvious.

I'm quite sure that those who insist women have no such right would never deny it to other marginalised group. So why are women the only marginalised group for whom the need to exercise that right is suspect? Could it be that EVERY OTHER marginalised group includes males in its population?

Under His Eye = Under His Thumb

The equality act talks about the proportionate reasons for single sex spaces. They exist; of course there are illegitimate reasons for single sex spaces and those should be and are contested. However, the right of women to assemble as women, without men present, has also been part of feminism's work from its earliest inception.

But legally it is difficult I think because they are private clubs.
It's not difficult. They are still institutions given status under the law and enjoying the protection of the law. We could as easily apply equality law to them (as, I believe, we do in regards to race) as we do to privately owned companies.

The barber's thing wasn't a matter of skill, she was asking for what would normally be considered a man's haircut. But as I say, I'm not sure if that refusal was supported in law. It may be that it wasn't.

School - yes complicated. But the reality is you don't have to justify a single sex school by showing how it will make things more equal - you can just do it. And that's problematic, I think.

And that's more my point - I don't support single sex spaces just "because". I think they ought to have a justification (and organizing against the patriarchy is very much a justification, but "I like to play with kittens and I don't want women/men there", probably isn't!).

What I fail to understand at all is how single gender spaces in places that do have to uphold equality law can be supported under the current law. They aren't sex segregated, which can be allowed when justified, but they impact against sexes in an uneven way (an all male gender space will exclude a few men but almost all women). So they are discriminatory. Any lawyers explain how that fits?

Cool, I will support any action to stop private members clubs.

I don't think any one here supports single sex spaces just "because".

Outside toilets at in tu shopping centre overheard a young man saying he could say he's non binary and use the women's toilets

He'd soon get fed up of the queues!

This sort of shit is what I find absolutely infuriating

Survivors' Network
@SurvivorsnetBtn
We have recently received a huge increase in attention and interest in our inclusion of trans women in our women-only services. We are happy to make it explicitly clear: Survivors’ Network recognises trans women as women, and we welcome them to use all of our services.

We know, though groundbreaking research, that trans people are disproportionately impacted by sexual violence, and we consider a trans inclusive feminism to be key to our values and central to our service as the Rape Crisis Centre for Sussex.

Our policies will not be changed by who shouts the loudest. We are committed to equality, we are committed to supporting our trans siblings in their survival journey, and we are committed to speaking up as a feminist organisation.

mobile.twitter.com/SurvivorsnetBtn/status/1108723016517779457

You'd hope their policies would be shaped by the needs of women who have been raped actually.

But no, they're being sidelined for a politically more important crusade. It's like Save The Pandas branching out and including distressed and vulnerable tigers in their rescue centres, these are two separate sets of needs since it is not possible to meet the needs of TWs without failing and losing raped women who up until now would have had a service to turn to.

And again the 'disproportionately affected' line. I know we've discussed it before; has that been proven yet? Where are the statistics that refuges are flooding with TW needing support to survive rape and DV, because if so why isn't this being properly set up and funded for and shouted about by the multiple government depts and charities with millions for TW causes, instead of women, children and TW all scrambling for the very few beds there are and many being turned away?

I really don’t want men showering in the cubicle next to me at the gym showers. I don’t want naked men standing next to me as I dress in the gym changing room. I don’t want men in the gym changing room as I wander from the showers to the hook to retrieve my towel.

I’m short sighted so don’t have my glasses on for most of the activities above so I have to have faith that there are not men in my gym changing rooms.

I would not choose to change, shower or dress next to men. Choice, my choice. This is to do with my dignity, comfort and feeling of safety. Men don’t belong in there so why are some so damn keen? If a male bodied person feels uncomfortable in the men’s changing room then wear your sports clothes to the gym or change in the loos - that’s what women are being forced to do.

The needs of men for validation - by being with women - is more important than the best interests and needs and the negative impact on the care of those women.

Same as with prisons.

Message loud and clear: penis people have intrinsically more value, are more important, their needs come first.

Mordaunt, you're a pitiful excuse for an equalities minister.

I think you can solve the toilet problem by not letting anyone in the cubical with you. I hope that helps

This is an incredibly rude comment. Passive aggressive.
I sometimes change my clothes in the public area of a toilet. I don't want men in there.
Also I have a big problem with hygiene. Men leave pee splatter on the floor and seat and the seat up and you have to lower it yourself.
Nobody asked us if we want gender neutral toilets.
I love the bit in one of Posie Parker's video where she says she took the gender neutral sign off of the women's loo and put it on the men's loo. Problem solved!

Our policies will not be changed by who shouts the loudest.

They just have been.