5 Transgender Women Who Have Fought Their Prisons From Behind Bars

[PrincessPlummy]

www.them.us/story/transgender-women-prison-legal-victories

'Incarcerated trans people can fight to create legal precedents that help the whole transgender community. Here are five who fought for important legal victories.'

although not in this thread so much

Your posts haven't proved very enlightening, either.

They all deserve to be safe behind bars but they don't extend the same compassion to women.

The hormones and hair removal... that's just pandering. And while it's contrasted against women who lose the right to dignity and safety - women are my concern.

PrincessPlummy I noticed two threads from you today where you opened by posting links to articles without comment.

It's generally considered poor form to expect others to debate whilst safely keeping one's own opinion private.

Here is information; discuss please.
This approach is likely to get short shrift from others.

So, when met with a possible screenshot fisher, posters are likely to respond with "you first, OP, it's your thread"

@PrincessPlummy, what parts of the article you linked are the elements that concern you, and why do they concern you?

Does it mention Dana Rvers, former Camp Trans activist who was instrumental in the shutting down a 40-year annual gathering of mostly lesbians at MichFest because TW simply could not abide that women might want to gather free of male presence?

Dana Rivers, after being fired from a teaching job for inappropriate conduct with a student, is now housed in a women’s jail awaiting trial for mass murder and arson, having allegedly killed an African-American lesbian couple and their teenage son and then allegedly setting the family’s house on fire in Oakland, California. Strangely, the death of a Black family in Oakland at the alleged hands of a white male warranted in a major Black city like Oakland warranted little press coverage.

You won’t find much about this murder of a lesbian family in the gay press either. It would seem that the death of lesbians being less important than the protection of an accused TW mass murderer, and that the death of Black mothers and their son are less important than the protection of a white male even amongst the Woke.

Funny that.

I def disagree with some gender critical views

Can you elaborate?

@NotTerfNorCis I don’t think post op transsexual women are indistinguishable from men politically

Can you elaborate? Why do you think that?

Well I’m not a tra, I’m undecided on my views around a few trans issues. I def disagree with some gender critical views but am pretty on the fence, so have been posting to see what others who are more involved think of this debate (and had some excellent and enlightening responses although not in this thread so much

PrincessPlummy Have you seen this thread?
Many who are new to the wider issues have said they found it very useful. Its well referenced:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

@R0wantrees thanks I've had read. I think that sex and gender intro explains how I feel - I have a post op transsexual friend who I don't view as a man (although they're not female), but I'm really concerned about male sex offenders and murderers moving into women's prison. I think maybe I hold more a moderate/empathizing view than most of the other women here

Have gone past empathy
Be kind
No
And men shouldn’t be in women’s jails however delusional they are
Don’t care if they are post surgery
That just surgery

These men should show empathy to women and be kind

Princess that is the dilemma isn't it? TRAs have made it impossible for women to continue to 'allow' transwomen into female spaces by dint of just not speaking out.

We can't have that unspoken agreement anymore as TRAs are suing it to trample over so much more.

They, not women, have thrown transwomen to the wolves. Sadly they want to make us the wolves!

As littlebrowndog says, despite my having being ambivalent about 2 years ago I now just see a trasnwoman as a man with surgery... no more leeway, no more polite. I am TRA-fatigued and no longer care if I am called TERF, nasty, lacking in empathy etc.

And I have no idea how that is going to affect my friendships, like you and many other GC posters here, I have post op trans friends and other who now fall (unwillingly) under Stonewalls trans umbrella!.

But CuriousaboutSamphire I struggle to see what to do about it? I think part of my concern is that recently I saw someone who was clearly biologically male wearing a skirt in the ladies loo at the theatre in London. I'm not transphobic by any means but it made me feel really unsettled .
I don't want to 'exclude' anyone, and I don't want to be mean, but my post op friend actually passes, which I know is harsh but for trans people that don't pass it's much harder to see them as they sex they identify with

You sound pretty gender critical to me OP! I have two family friends who are post-op transsexuals. They recognise that they have deeply held feelings about they way they wish they were, and have had treatments to try and get themselves closer to where they wish they were, crucially neither would ever describe themselves as women but transwomen. As one said a few years ago (after many years of therapy), in my heart I'm a woman but my head knows I'm not, I feel so wrong and desperately wish I was but if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. I call her she/her out of respect but no one is denying reality here.

The awful thing is that for many years she used women's loos without issue, of course people realised she was not female but it wasn't a problem. Now people like her are called "tru-scum" by activists and she is getting more aggro than before thanks to TRAs and their campaigns.

I think the difference between me and lots of GC people is that I view transsexual women who've had surgery as sort of like women. They are the ones who get Gender Recognition Certificates, and I don't really have an issue with that (although prisons are another matterly entirely - I don't think anyone born male should be in a female prison)

You feel unsettled not because there is someone who is trans, but because there is someone who is male, because of male pattern violence and what we all know, which is that women are more at risk from men than the other way around. And all the research shows that transwomen offend at the same rates as men, not women (though those stats are being increasingly skewed with crimes recorded by stated gender, not sex).

Years ago we could trust that the only men in our spaces were post op transsexuals, the "old school" ones. And there were so few it didn't impact on the vast majority of people. Now I'm told that up to 15% of the population may be trans according to Stonewall's definition of the trans umbrella. And 80% of those will have no surgery at all.

I live in a country where men wear kilts. Don’t mean that they magically turn into women and go into the ladies

It’s a bit of power thing by these guys and a bit of a kink thing as well

Ooooh the thrill how naughty am I

It s not being mean it’s using your brain

Transphobic that insult don’t mean a thing now

Sure! An old-school, GRC holding, post op transsexual is "sort of" like a woman. But crucially they are NOT women, and the knock on effect of claiming that they ARE women affects women's scholarships, shortlists, prisons, rape shelters, health care, schools, sport, etc etc etc.

This was a very good article that opened my eyes to a lot of the motivations behind this: notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2018/04/05/have-women-and-girls-got-too-many-rights/

Me too, Princess I struggle to know what to do about it.

I would say that you are peaking, slowly. You say you want to be nice. Ask yourself why?

The man who made you feel unsettled wasn't being nice to you or any other woman in there. He was expecting you to play the game according to your female socialisation. He was relying on you being too nice to complain. He may have had lots of surgery... he still made you feel uncomfortable! Many with GRAs do not 'pass'.

That is the shit storm TRAs have whipped up for transwomen. And we women are getting the blame for it!

Anyway how can you sorta be like a woman?

What’s a sorta like a woman ?
How can we tell

Am I one ?

Am I one ?

Do you wear blush pink? Do you have a ladybrain?

I think part of the reason I feel mean, was because I felt unsettled because the person I saw in the loos as well as being made was dressed in a way like if not really seen any women dress in real life.
Fishnet stockings, leather miniskirt, Lacy top. I really felt guilty for feeling nervous, but it just made their behaviour seem kind of sexual in a way??(I am not homophobic/transphobic in the slightest hence why i question these feelings!)

@littlebrowndog I guess she looks like a woman, so it’s easier for me to recognise her as a woman, whereas some trans people do look like men in dresses (and I don’t mean that to be transphobic!)

Blush pink 😂😂😂