Karen Clifton (Strictly) turned away from barbers

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DM link:

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-6823271/Karen-Clifton-tears-reveals-turned-away-barbers-woman.html

Karen has been wearing her hair short recently and has been having it styled at a barbershop. She returned to the same barbers this week to be told that she is unable to have her hair cut there because 'she is a woman'.

I have so much to say on this and I feel conflicted in my thoughts too.

Where does the line start when accessing sex segregated / gendered spaces? I say gendered because the article says gender and I believe hair styles are gendered and not specific to a particular sex.

I feel that it shouldn't matter where you have your hair styled, but I can't help siding with a business owner who should be able to have a right to refuse business. Just like the women who refused to wax lady balls.

On a lighter note; I think Karen's new hair looks fab!

I'm sorry but barbers can cut whose hair they want/are trained to do. This is a ridiculous story. Karen could have had her hair cut any number of places but made a big sob story out of this and took it to the press. My hairdresser (who is a woman) has made a decision not to cut men's hair because she is uncomfortable doing so - surely this is her right and woman on here would applaud her right to do so? Denying men that reciprocal right is hypocritical. I often worry that the salon I use could be targeted by trans and sued for not providing haircuts for men (something they are neither trained nor comfortable with). I applaud these woman in their right to provide a single sex space. I support men who do the same. This story is nonsense and reduces our credibility. I find her embarrassing and entitled.

I'm a hairdresser my initial training and qualifications are very spesifically for women's hair therefore my insurance is only valid for women.

Single sex hairdressing sounds a backwards step to me

Where would you stop? How many things should be single sex?

All in favour of single sex where necessary, for privacy or to overcome effects of stereotyping in society, but Not in general , be that’s men only golf clubs or physics laboratories. Or hairdressers.

Used a barber myself for long hair and the masculine no fuss and no pampering approach, which are gender not sex reasons. Being forced to use a hairdresser since he moved, so I cut my own as I can’t stand the faff.

Curious as to the difference between male and female hair?

It's not the hair it's the cuts 🤨 and in women's you learn colouring most barbers don't. Barbering is a very different technique - you are not really taught scissor over comb or clipper/blending work in women's hairdressing.

ta

If a barber says that he/she can't or won't cut women's hair then is it not the case that he/she is best placed to make that call?

If they want their barbers shop to be for just men is that an issue?
If they want to only cut men's hair why is that a problem?
Are there not other options for people? Is there not enough choice?

The difference between cutting men and women's hair is basically £££££ and also massively different techniques the barber has to have confidence in achieving what the client would like!

The conversation in some barber shops is very male focused and some men find it difficult or just don't want women in that mix-there will always be a barber somewhere tho that is fine with it!
Surely it is his or her right to refuse?

SO we allow people to refuse to serve some one based on their sex?

Would you accept that In a cafe? WOuld you accept that in a university?

yes, you should refuse if you don’t know a technique that is required , but to assume that someone requires specific techniques because they are a woman? That is sexist sterotyping

A few posters on here seem to be under the impression that cutting a woman's hair really short is exactly the same as cutting a man's.

No doubt there are some posters who are genuinely happy with a standard no.1 bloke cut. In reality, as a quick look around any shop, office or pub will show, women's very short hair cuts are far more styled and complicated than the standard no. 1 bloke cut.

Is it really so difficult to understand that a person trained in cutting standard number 1 bloke cuts might be uncomfortable at cutting a woman's hair? They can't glue the hair back on.

I've no idea who this person is but she is a ridiculous, silly drama queen. What an enormous fuss over nothing.

Maybe they said No because she had been in before and they knew what kind of cut she had... and the person she was speaking to was unable to do that?

If they want their barbers shop to be for just men is that an issue?
Of course it isn't. It is hypocrisy to object to it.

If they want to only cut men's hair why is that a problem?
It isn't - unless your hobby happens to be looking for problems so you can make an enormous fuss.

Are there not other options for people? Is there not enough choice?
I mean it is almost impossible to find someone to cut your hair.

Barber shops aren’t really male spaces though are they. I take my sons to get their hair cut (I’m a woman) and they have a part time woman working there as well as the main two guys. I don’t know if they cut women’s hair but they let women through the door.

If the details and interview in the Fail are an accurate reflection of what happened I'm not even sure this was all about single sex space though. It sounds to me more a case of a staff member thought they couldn't do ladies hair (not coz they're a sexist premises at all but perhaps this individual genuinely didn't realise they could) and the lady concerned decided to fire back very publicly and emotionally.

I'm sure said staff member is now under no illusion that ladies are in fact very welcome

This sort of drama is undermining us.

Barber shops aren’t really male spaces though are they
There are plenty of barbers in my town where women would definitely not be welcome! (cultural reasons)

We've had this thread before. Barbering and hairdressing are different skills and different qualifications. The salon's/barber's professional insurance will only cover them for what they're qualified to do so unless the barber has a hairdressing qualification he could be opening himself up to a whole heap of trouble by cutting women's hair.

A fade is fine. Barbers are trained to do fades. The cut the woman in question has is very much a woman's cut. I'm not sure why a PP had trouble getting a short back sides if she wanted the traditional male version but I would guess it had more to do with insurance and the barbers skill set than sexism.

As I've said, I'm a barber and a woman and I cut women's hair, mainly because I trained as a hairdresser first so feel able to deliver what they want, I also have a large lesbian clientele who want the traditional short back and sides because they prefer to have a woman cut their hair in a more masculine environment.
Barbering generally is based on a different shape-things are cut a lot squarer compared to women's short hair which retains a softness (unless she wants a genuine short back and sides)

There are barbershops for blokes (some will do ladies) there are ladies salons for women (some accept men) and there are unisex. I think that'll do! Something for everyone x

There are also shops that refuse kids! That's a whole different issue there

@MIdgebabe
There are sex segregated spaces tho, and that's ok. Like schools!
We don't know the reason the barber turned this person away-could he for technical, confidence, religious or purely a business choice.

As I said, I cut ladies hair, can't afford to turn them away! But it's my co workers choice if he wants to or not. And if I'm not there that day then a lady can't get her hair cut!

Even though I have long hair I mostly hate going to the hairdresser. The faff. The time. The mirrors. The focus on appearance. The big bill!

I have it cut at home these days - much cheaper and simpler.

In this case my hunch is that a stage and tv personality is likely to have requirements beyond just short hair !

Single sex schools are an interesting one. I don’t think it’s good in principal. Especially at primary when sex should not matter . In practise, girl can be disadvantaged in mixed schools, so it’s giving opportunity to girl to do well that they would otherwise be denied. Overcoming a specific quantifiable problem , rather than solving the real issue

I guess in every case where we have sex discrimination we need to balance the whatbproblem we want to overcome with the fact that having discrimination will reinforce divisions between sexes, as it highlights the difference and highlighting difference lead to discrimination. Circular. Creates and strengthens the idea of them an us.

I don't have the knowledge or education to articulate what I feel on this issue really-as a woman and a barber I can see all sides-but I really don't think there is an issue with a barber choosing what clients they will serve, there are other options available to those who aren't the demographic including barbers who will cut men's and women's hair.

Yes, you should refuse if you don’t know a technique that is required , but to assume that someone requires specific techniques because they are a woman?

How do you know he assumed? It's obvious to anyone who knows hair that is a woman's cut. It's got long graduation. The barber could well have looked at her long layers aka long graduation and thought 'I don't know how to do that. I haven't been trained in long graduation.'

@Frequency exactly - I started in women hair and have also now moved to Barbering - the difference in technical terms is quite surprising

And can you imagine if the stylist concerned had a go anyway and got it badly wrong? Doomed either way.

The gendered price difference is effing annoying, for sure, although I appreciate that barbering is a very different skill set.

It’s relatively easy for a barbershop to maintain both a traditional, male only cultural feel and also cater for women though - just have a designated day of the week or time slot and advertise it well, including on the door, so that Ms Clifton knows when she can get a barber cut for barber prices and not get upset at what feels personal at the time.
A business could offer the same in after school slot for mums of sons, if they felt so inclined.

Barbers are less problematic in sexist terms than golf clubs or members clubs because people don’t make business decisions or professionally network in a barber shop (unless they are actual barbers? 😂)

I have no problem with barbers being legally allowed to operate single sex services as long as they advertise it as such, after all, there will always be competitors willing to snap up women who want a barbered cut - just make it easy for women customers to find the businesses that want their custom!