Munroe Bergdorf Hertford says clothes are not gendered (Title edited by MNHQ)

[Janie143]

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@MunroeBergdorf
Words, clothes, makeup, hairstyles, patterns are all man-made. Humans have gendered these things ourselves. They have no real intrinsic gender. The rules of gender roles are completely made up. They only exist because we made them exist, so they can also be adapted or changed.

Should say Bergdorf obvs
mobile.twitter.com/MunroeBergdorf/status/1103686847102898182

Agree wholeheartedly OP. We need this messages to be pushed, not the dangerous you like dresses you must actually be a girl.

What's the point of this thread?

Is this supposed to be a revelation?

'Man-made' is generally accurate - many of the rules of gender exist precisely to subjugate the female sex.

What's the point of this thread?

Bergdorf says something true but hasn't worked out the implications properly?

Is the beginning of Bergdorf's detransitioning?

This is what I’m always shouting

It's a bit ironic from Ms Hertford though

The rules of gender roles are completely made up.

Well, yes. If they believe this, fine. Where does breast implants and 'feminisation' surgery come into it? If they actually believed this they wouldn't dress in very stylised (over sexualised) 'womans' clothes and have photo shoots in slinky undercrackers. Or are they saying that they aren't a woman?

'Gender' is made up but sex isn't. You could argue that women as the child bearers of the species are more nurturing by nature. I haven't time to go into that though.

Maybe MB should advise Parliament of the revelation she has identified They listen to trans people Then all references to gender can disapper. Kids won't be sent down a path of experimental medicine and surgery for liking the wrong toys. NHS won't have to fund medical treatment for people who like make up, or they don't, depending on whether they are supposed to. Sport, toilets, refuges etc will be sex segregated etc Because gender does not exist Hallelujah!

This is because MB is invested in conflating gender and sex. This isn't MB being Gender Critical - this is a useful GC argument that MB sees can back up MB's desire to have their own way.

If MB actually believed this is in a GC way, MB would be proudly saying that they can wear whatever they like, do whatever they like, as a male, because none of the arbitrary rules of Gender are intrinsic. And we would very likely applaud MB.

But actually, MB is saying that because MB likes all those things arbitrarily gendered for females, MB is a female and entitled to access everything that has been set aside for those of the female sex.

It's not just illogical and internally inconsistent, it's also completely fucking ridiculous to think that because you like to wear feminine clothes, you should be able to access female rights. If gender is not innate, and not innately connected to sex, why would sex based rights have anything to do with your 'gender ID'?

There's some great responses on the twitter thread, apart from Jane Fae predictably not getting it. 'God' (ie, evolution) created male and female, not 'ladies and gents'.

Humans have gendered these things ourselves. They have no real intrinsic gender. The rules of gender roles are completely made up.

That sounds entirely gender critical. 'Gender' means cultural stereotypes associated with a biological sex. It doesn't follow that adopting feminine stereotypes makes a person female. Bergdorf's argument seems counter to genderist ideology.

Wonder if the inclusion of "words" is significant and what that means to her?

Nah, she's not being GC. Most the trans people I know would make the same argument. She believes herself to be female (actually fully female) and is thus making a feminist argument that the clothes she wears as a female are not inherently female clothes and that any female, including her, can wear what they like because clothes aren't gendered.

She would say that her gender identity is not based on clothing or gender expressive hobbies or mannerisms but on her having been born a female who just happens to have a penis. She knows she is female because she 'just knows' (circular, I know), and this knowing is based on a 'deep feeling'.

I know a lot of trans people so even though I don't know much about this person I am pretty sure that will be her line of thought.

I think people do genuinely have this deep feeling and I believe that most do actually believe fully that they were born females who happen to have a penis. The issue for me is that this is clearly a mental health issue relating to the trauma of patriarchy, but that's a whole other topic.

But, no, she isn't being GC, I'm fairly sure.

so they can also be adapted or changed.

This is the key bit - MB is saying they can choose all of the above so they do but they're still female it's to counter arguments at MB that MB thinks it's all lingerie and make up.

The irony.

But don’t they take the piss out of women they don’t seem ‘female’ ie slouchy clothes and hairy legs?

Talking out of their arse.

Well indeed!

I look forward to MB’s next fashion forward promotion of dungarees and sensible flat shoes.

I look forward to Bergdorf's facial un-femininisation surgery as surgery is man-made, too.

And skin colouring...

Male = magical manish essence
Female = magical femalish essence.

MB could probably do a perfume range based on this. A little dab of "feeling"

That Twitter thread is a hoot

Humans are all human-made. Humans have gendered these things ourselves. They have no real intrinsic gender. The rules of gender roles are completely made up. They only exist because we made them exist, so they can also be adapted or changed.

I've been thinking about this recently, because obviously everyone should be able to wear whatever they like without caring if the clothes are culturally coded masculine or feminine - if they did, eventually the codes would disappear.

But the other day I saw a TW, at 10am on a cold morning, wearing a miniskirt, thigh-high boots, garish makeup, and a headscarf with long hair poking out at the bottom, and it bothered me and made me uncomfortable in a way that just 'man wearing a skirt' never would. It was the sense of sexualisation/fetishisation of womanhood in a very specific way. It's possible for a woman to wear a miniskirt and a headscarf, of course, but I've never seen one do it before, because of the very different cultural connotations of those items of clothing.

That’s just doing an act though surely? Like a drag act?

Very possibly! Had I seen someone dressed like that 5 years ago, that would probably have been my assumption. Maybe I've just read too much about people claiming to be 'literally women' on spurious grounds and so on. (Another problem with the 'misgendering' thing - how do you know, now, if someone sees themselves as a TW or a man in drag...)