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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TImes article - "Bearded, non-binary authors have eyes on women’s prize"

53 replies

EweSurname · 11/03/2019 09:59

The Times has covered this story, focusing more on the complexities of placing non-binary people into categories. Does it not follow that we will need 76+ categories to accommodate all the varying genders?

The story of how a woman who doesn't identify as a woman is nonetheless is happy to be up for a women's prize - from a guardian article: She said the judges were not aware of Emezi’s gender identity when they selected Freshwater, but they did check that Emezi was happy to be longlisted before the announcement

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bearded-non-binary-authors-have-eyes-on-womens-prize-08n77tkjs

Emezi has criticised the jury after one of the judges suggested that the novelist had been accepted into the award only because when the novel was published they had identified as female. Emezi said this was untrue and claimed that the judge, Arifa Akbar, was guilty of misgendering.

[...]The author’s selection and the subsequent fallout has prompted the organisers of the prize, first awarded in 1996, to “formulate a policy around gender fluid, transgender, non-binary writers to provide clarity” for its future.

Another non-binary, transgender writer, Vic Parsons, said it was clear that Emezi had only been included because at birth they were “assigned a female gender”. Parsons suggested that a novel would not have been allowed if written by someone who had once identified as a man. Parsons said that if non-binary people “who were assigned female at birth” were included, then non-binary people “who were assigned male at birth” must be. “That includes those of us who have beards, who are more masculine-presenting, and those who are more fem-presenting,” Parsons told BBC’s Radio 4’s Front Row. “If you are going to say non-binary, that absolutely has to include all non-binary people.”

OP posts:
EcclesThePeacock · 11/03/2019 10:03

The most obvious solution is that women's prizes should be for women, and if you decide you aren't a woman then you should have the integrity not to be included in consideration for one, rather than forming the wedge in the door which lets men in and renders the whole concept of a woman's prize meaningless.

GabrielleNelson · 11/03/2019 10:06

Not for the first time I find myself thinking fondly of the B ark in Hitchhikers.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 11/03/2019 10:07

Akwaeke Emezi, who was born a woman before having a voluntary hysterectomy and now identifies as non-binary transgender

JFC - is that true? some medic removed her healthy womb? what the actual fuck?

EcclesThePeacock · 11/03/2019 10:07

Here's a sharetoken link

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bearded-non-binary-authors-have-eyes-on-womens-prize-08n77tkjs?shareToken=19a197cb70871700b04c2cef8ca65f54

I'm not sure that shows the additional story covered under the same item about the problem with gymnastics.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 11/03/2019 10:11

Gabrielle that's come to mind for me too, so many times Grin

HumberElla · 11/03/2019 10:12

Why do they need a new policy about gender?
The point of having a prize for women is that females are disadvantaged in the writing world (both now and historically) because of their sex.

GregoryPeckingDuck · 11/03/2019 10:14

Maybe we should stop having sexist pitty prizes? Women can write just as well as men. There is no reason to have separate categories. It’s not like female authors simply can’t compete with male ones.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 11/03/2019 10:15

GregoryPeckingDuck

maybe you should learn to spell pity

theredjellybean · 11/03/2019 10:32

Why do we need separate competitions for men and women unless the competition involves physical strength?
We want equality, so we should all compete equally.
Can't see why women need separate literary prizes?

EcclesThePeacock · 11/03/2019 10:38

Can't see why women need separate literary prizes?

In theory, I'd agree (in theory I'd also say we shouldn't need all women lists for elections etc either). But, we still live in a sexist world where women aren't judged fairly, and some women still feel the need to publish under a male (or neutral) pseudonym.

Floisme · 11/03/2019 10:47

As I recall, the Women's Prize orginated after a Booker Prize shortlist in the early 90s didn't feature a single female writer. You may of course believe this was because no book written by a woman that year was good enough, but I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder if there was something else going on.

hackmum · 11/03/2019 10:51

Floisme is right. And the thing is, it's worked wonders. The Orange Prize (as it then was) brought loads of really good female writers to public attention. Since then the Booker has come to have much more representative shortlists, and a few female winners, such as Hilary Mantel and (last year) the brilliant Anna Burns.

The other point is that if you set up a prize, you can pretty much choose who you want to include and exclude. There are prizes for writers under 30, gay and lesbian writers, writers from the Commonwealth (which used to be the case with the Booker), writers living in Wales. Those kinds of prizes are a great way of giving encouragement to under-represented groups and introducing interesting new writers to the reading public.

EcclesThePeacock · 11/03/2019 10:59

The inclusion of a 'bearded nonbinary' (not sure if in this case a TM or a woke bloke) would essentially make this a 'non-mens' prize. The discussion of whether there should be women's prizes at all isn't really very relevant - the question here is, should this be a women's prize or a 'non-mens' prize. What justification is there for the latter?

truthisarevolutionaryact · 11/03/2019 11:15

There are some great (and some not so great) comments under that article.

HumberElla · 11/03/2019 11:37

There is a reason JK Rowling published using only her initials.

AbsintheFriends · 11/03/2019 11:49

Why do we need separate competitions for men and women unless the competition involves physical strength?

Because the book industry is still systemically sexist. Women's books get only 26% of reviews in the London Review of Books, 29% in the Times Literary Supplement, even though in 2017 9 out of the 10 bestselling authors were women.

Women's prizes elevate the status and visibility of female authors. And I entirely agree with pp that if authors don't identify as women they shouldn't take up places on shortlists for women's prizes.

MIdgebabe · 11/03/2019 17:22

But why should anyone be forced to accept a gender identity of woman to be considered as a woman? Why should anyone have any gender identity forced on them? She is still a woman and will still have suffered discrimination as a result of her sex. Why can I not be woman (sex), gender - none, thank you very much. . I am physically a woman and I have been discrim8nated agaisnt because of this, AND bullied because I refused to accept the dominant female gender identity.

MIdgebabe · 11/03/2019 17:23

I also want men to be considere as men no matter what their gender identity

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 11/03/2019 17:27

Non binary transgender? So a ‘not-man’ then?

Dear god I really think that some people have far too much time on their hands (too busy gawping into their own navels).

ComputerSaysMo · 11/03/2019 17:59

They are, Midgebabe - that’s why they’ve been gifted such enormous media, policy & sports platforms to have their say, while women get banned and arrested for pointing it out.

OldCrone · 11/03/2019 18:10

JFC - is that true? some medic removed her healthy womb? what the actual fuck?

Yes. It's all described in this article. Emezi wanted a hysterectomy. Doctors said no. Emezi said Emezi was trans. Doctors said yes.

www.thecut.com/2018/01/writer-and-artist-akwaeke-emezi-gender-transition-and-ogbanje.html

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3523653-Woman-wins-womens-prize

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 11/03/2019 18:12

I’m sure should emezi one day decide that they want to have a baby, emezi will sue big time.

Harumphharagh · 11/03/2019 21:57

I’ve just looked up the literature section of a university college near me: next term they teach courses on eight male authors and zero female authors.

The rampant sexism in the literary world (Publishing as well as writing) has to be witnessed to be believed.

Look up the dan Mallory / aj finn New Yorker article. One of its questions is along the lines of ‘but how did this articulate and presentable young man wangle himself several senior editorial jobs with little to no experience?’

Every woman in publishing, ‘with great ease, like they normally do’.

Work force of for example Hachette (one of the biggest publishers) is around 70% female, main board about 60-70% male, gender pay gap just published as 30%, WORSE than last year.

Oldermum156 · 11/03/2019 22:15

Maybe in order to get my malfunctioning, pain filled uterus removed I should tell doctors I am a transman. I cna't get it removed for anything so silly as crippling endo pain. Ha!

GabrielleNelson · 11/03/2019 22:24

Your Fekkoness, I doubt someone as important and amazing as Emezi would want to do the tiresome business of gestating personally anyway. Emezi would use* a surrogate. I wonder if Emezi's eggs were harvested before Emezi's womb was removed.

*The use of 'use' here makes me boil with rage. It's like 'use' prostitutes. Women are more than genitals on legs.