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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Grayson Perry irks me

469 replies

everythingisbetterafteranap · 10/03/2019 09:38

Not sure if I'm going to articulate this well, so bear with me.

I was reading a Guardian article on a therapist who is married to the artist Grayson Perry. Reasonably interesting article with a focus on self awareness as a parent.

But it got me thinking again on why so many bright, intelligent women so readily accept men dressing up as women in such a garish pantoesque way. Where is the feminist critique of this?

Grayson Perry has his alter ego 'Claire' who looks like the silliest version of female you could find. Why is this acceptable and not challenged? Would Grayson Perry be lauded for having a black alter ego with big lips and exaggerated gestures? There is even an annual 'let's dress Claire' competition at St Martins art college. Why aren't the students there questioning this?

What is this really all about? It doesn't feel female empowering to me.

OP posts:
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Disco3000 · 10/03/2019 17:16

However GP wants to dress is up to him. Who cares if he wears 'female' clothes, if this is an issue why aren't people banging on about women wearing trousers. I'm always surprised at how narrow minded people are in the 21st Century.

EcclesThePeacock · 10/03/2019 17:17

My take is he's an honest transvestite. He stands in contrast to males who are essentially the same as him(albeit generally less talented) who are nowadays claiming to be transwomen.

He exposes the lie of someone like Pips Bunce being in any way brave or admirable while stealing awards from women, by turning up at the palace for an honour he's won by his abilities wearing an outfit which looks like something the Duchess of Cornwall might wear.

Eddie Izzard, that's who irks me - someone who's gone from being an honest 'man in a dress' to claims of being a 'Male lesbian'. Hmm

LassOfFyvie · 10/03/2019 17:17

There's no such thing as women's clothes so it's moot

That is not true. Women's bodies are not the same shape as men's. My chest measurement is the same as my son's. If I buy a tailored shirt from the men's section it will be too large in the shoulder, too long in the sleeve, baggy at the waist at too tight round the hips. The reverse will apply if he were to buy a women's tailorec shirt.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 10/03/2019 17:22

LassofFyvie you're talking about sizing. There is is no standard women's body. Some women have wide hips, some have hips that resemble men's hips. Some have huge boobs, some are flat-chested. A skirt can be tailored to fit either a man or a woman.

DoctoressPlague · 10/03/2019 17:25

This is such an interesting discussion.
I don't think anyone is 'policing' anything, but what about impulse control wrt crossdressing as sexual behaviour?
One of my first jobs was working in a bar with a manager who crossdressed for work. His frocks didn't conceal his frequent erections (he thought they did*). Sure, it wouldn't have been so bad if he had hidden his boners, but I think there's a time and place for sexual behaviour, and it's about impulse control rather than the thickness of fabric. (I'm not chastising men for having kinks or involuntary erections, and I'm not saying that all crossdressers walk around with a boner all the time.

  • I had a brief relationship with this guy, but that's for another thread.) Does Perry get a free pass because he is an artist and social commentator? I don't know why some posters insist that Perry does it just for fun and entertainment, when he has said it himself that he gets off on it. I do agree that he has explored toxic masculinity in an interesting and intelligent way, but I see his female persona as a symptom rather than a meaningful response to sex stereotypes. As social commentary goes, 'Claire' is pretty crap imo.
Trousering · 10/03/2019 17:27

Blimey. Cross dressing is a sex fetish. Look here is Wikipedia with an explanation of how it's in the DSM.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism
It's perfectly okay to talk about this. It does not reveal anything about feminists that talk about it other than they know about fetishists. Perry being one.

It is sexual behaviour. Unwanted sexual behaviour is sexual harassment. These are just unemotional facts. Not judgements.

I am amazed at how judgmental it gets when this comes up.

Nope, there's nothing inherently womanly about a half slip, especially when a cross dressing fetishist is wearing it. Deny, deny deny. I buy half slips for dads and brothers every Christmas, along with silky stockings. Just stocking fillers. Nothing womanly at all.

Smile
LassOfFyvie · 10/03/2019 17:31

Good on him I say (and people like the OP are revealing signs that they are probably relatively happy with existing gendered norms relating to appearance, but realise it makes them look better if they claim not to be)

No I don't think it's that. I'm quite happy with existing gendered norms. I don't want men muscling in on female clothing.

I think it's more to do with the visceral hatred some feminists have for anything feminine (aka "all that pink shit") so that even if men embrace it , it still has to be criticised in some way.

Funky men's tailored shirts do not fit women. That is why shops like Thomas Pink have separate sections for men and women. It isn't just a question of sizing.

LassOfFyvie · 10/03/2019 17:33

Cross dressing is a sex fetish. Look here is Wikipedia with an explanation of how it's in the DSM

So you keep saying. Not sure what point you are making in the context of GP. I really don't care if it is.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 10/03/2019 17:37

No I don't think it's that. I'm quite happy with existing gendered norms. I don't want men muscling in on female clothing.

So seeing as women wearing trousers is a relatively modern phenomenon, we should just go back to wearing skirts and dresses all the time so that we don't 'muscle in'? What is your issue? Are you worried there won't be enough clothes left for you or something?

I think it's more to do with the visceral hatred some feminists have for anything feminine (aka "all that pink shit") so that even if men embrace it , it still has to be criticised in some way.

I don't have visceral hatred for pink things. It's a colour. I don't like the associations that are made between pink and certain personality traits though. Also, the pink thing again is a total social construct because pink used to be a 'boy' colour.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 10/03/2019 18:07

No I don't think it's that. I'm quite happy with existing gendered norms. I don't want men muscling in on female clothing.

I find that to be really sexist. Gender norms are oppressive to women and men.

napody · 10/03/2019 18:10

He did refer to self ID in a guardian q&a a few years ago and said something along the lines of 'identity is co-constructed, you can't just identify as something it relies on society accepting that identity'. Which seemed to show some understanding. And although he has avoided the issue since I think there is at least a fair chance he is onside.

DoctoressPlague · 10/03/2019 18:16

Perry is definitely not a transactivist and he's not helpful to the TRA cause in any way. Still, I don't think everything needs to be looked at from the pov of the current TRA madness.

sackrifice · 10/03/2019 18:51

Just because a man with a fetish isn't saying 'kill all TERFS' - doesn't mean we shouldn't object to being incorporated in his fetish without his permission.

pinegreen · 10/03/2019 18:54

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Floisme · 10/03/2019 19:03

We seem to be talking about two things which to my mind, are quite different: 1) men wearing women's clothes because they like them or to challenge gender norms. And 2) men wearing women's clothes because it gets them off.

As far as I'm concerned, 1) is fine. 2) is also fine if done in private or with consenting adults. But expecting women to play along unwittingly while you get off - well call me uncool but that leaves me pretty Hmm.

However I suspect that, if I knew even half of what goes on in some men's heads, I would be in a perpetual state of Shock Perry has been honest when he didn't have to be and I do appreciate that and I still believe it's highly dangerous to judge anyone by their thoughts alone.

OldCrone · 10/03/2019 19:03

it’s not just a skirt, it’s the hair flicking, the simpering, the fake high pitched voice, the coquettish glances. In other words, the grotesque, harmfully stereotypical, demonstrative performance of “woman” that makes me bristle.

I agree. For me it's when the line is crossed between 'a man wearing a dress', and when it becomes a man impersonating a woman or parodying a woman.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 10/03/2019 19:12

Can I just point out, Grayson is not wearing women’s clothes, they are made specifically for him and are just his clothes.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 10/03/2019 19:13

Please watch the clip I posted, he’s not performing woman at all, it’s just Grayson talking while wearing a dress made for him. He even says Claire isn’t real and he wouldn’t go down that route today, he was young and influenced by the accepted idea of what cross dressers should be.

Jolonglegs · 10/03/2019 19:13

I really like GP's art work and his writing on art: so refreshing. I don't really understand why men dress as women, but as long as his family are ok with it, and he doesn't threaten women I don't see what the problem is.

hdh747 · 10/03/2019 19:13

Ok I was being disingenuous to a degree by saying that there's no such thing as women's clothing. I do however mean there shouldn't be.
And yes wearing them is a big fetish thing for a lot of men.
But would the fetish even exist if it wasn't for all the stereotypes? Isn't a fetish a sexual expression of something else really - ie not being allowed to express yourself fully in all areas of life?
I really don't care what people wear. Nor do I care what their sexual fetishes are, if they don't impact negatively on others. There's a fine line between imitation and appropriation. But I'm heartily sick of having people's fetishes shoved in my face. Has our society got nothing other than sex to think about these days?
I think Grayson is exploring and sharing a few things in a fairly acceptable manner, but the line is crossed so easily.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 10/03/2019 19:14

I don't really understand why men dress as women

He’s not dressing as a woman. He’s a man in a dress, he says this repeatedly.

DoctoressPlague · 10/03/2019 19:33

We seem to be talking about two things which to my mind, are quite different: 1) men wearing women's clothes because they like them or to challenge gender norms. And 2) men wearing women's clothes because it gets them off.

Yes, I think you're right Floisme.
Anyway, here's Grayson Perry on transvestism. I think it's disingenuous to say that he doesn't dress as a woman. Why deny the fetish element, which he himself talks about so freely?

www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/04/grayson-perry-dress-tranny-art-who-are-you-tv

Perry rarely dresses up unless he’s going out, because it’s such an effort. Does he ever get bored with it? Now he tells me I don’t understand the nature of transvestism. “No, I’m not bored with transvestism. That would be silly – I’m a transvestite. The dress is only one element of the psycho-sexual process. Just because you don’t have a dress on doesn’t stop you being a tranny, in the same way as, if you’re not in bed with a man, it doesn’t stop you being gay.”

Does he still find it sexually exciting? “Oh yes,” he shouts excitedly. “Yeah!” But there is a problem, he says, with being a very public tranny. You mean, you couldn’t be seen at the Royal Academy in a nice frock and a stiffy? He nods enthusiastically. “You couldn’t do it. If I could manage it, I’m sure I’d be thinking how to do it. But I can’t.” He pauses. “My days of a spontaneous erection are long gone, anyway,” he adds a little sadly.

As a young man, he dressed as a more conventional woman. Why did Claire change her look? “I had a Damascene moment when I realised that the masquerade of dressing up as a woman and getting away with it, or ‘passing’, as they call it in the tranny world, was a fairly unrewarding experience. I used to come back from shopping in Oxford Street in my Monsoon outfit and think, well, nobody really gave me a second glance and that was boring.” He wanted to be noticed? “I was always slightly envious of those trannies who dressed more flamboyantly and didn’t give a shit.” But why, for instance, the Little Bo Peep look? “It’s a classic look. I used to call it the crack cocaine of femininity. It’s the furthest from the male macho look you could get. It’s vulnerable, it’s young, it’s humiliating. The fantasy of humiliation is a big drug for many men.”

These days, most of his dresses are made by students at Central Saint Martins, where he teaches a course in fashion (“teaching them is pushing it: I expose them to my sensibilities”), and he has to tell them he’s got more than enough Little Bo Peep numbers. At 54, he thinks he is struggling with his look. “Trannies go through this horrible cycle. When they’re really young and just post-pubescent, they can look gorgeous as a woman – you’re fairly androgynous, you’re thin, you just look good. When I look back at the first photographs, I realise what a wasted opportunity it was. I didn’t have the budget, experience or confidence to pull it off. Now I’ve got the budget, experience and confidence, but I’ve not got the features. You go through this cycle where you get older and older, and you get to around 35 to 40 when you’re looking your most manly. Then there’s a little payoff at the end, where, as you get really old, you become androgynous again.” He can’t wait for his 70s: if he’s got his hair, he’s going for the lilac rinse. “I’m going to go the whole way. I’m looking forward to being an old artist and not giving a shit.”

ScrimshawTheSecond · 10/03/2019 19:43

Perry's dressing seems to have several different elements. Sexual elements, I suppose, also provocateur elements. An artist provokes questions, and I'd say if it leads to detailed consideration of, discussion and thought on the issues of, say, femininity, gender, social responsibility etc, it's been a fairly successful art work/project.

And now, it's clearly part of his 'brand'. Self-parody, maybe. I don't think it's mocking women, so much as Greer's 'third sex' of femininity. I seem to recall her discussing drag in exactly this context.

As for the fetish aspect - we can't police someone's thoughts or sexual impulses. People can wear whatever they like, it's their words and actions that matter. Any one of us could be part of a thousand passersby's sexual fantasies/thrills; I'm afraid there's not a huge amount anyone can do about it. Besides, is everyone just to ensure they never entertain a sexual thought while out in public? What do you propose? Anyone who looks like they're wearing unorthodox clothing and enjoying it should be tutted at?

Perry seems to be thoughtful, kind and respectful. I don't doubt he's considered all of this in depth. I think he's making his own contribution to the debate(s), in his own way.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 10/03/2019 19:45

ScrimshawTheSecond thank you for such a well considered contribution, says a lot of what I’ve concluded but more eloquently than I could.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 10/03/2019 20:04

I suppose in answer to the OP, part of the art is the irking. Just like Greer liked to get people angry when she was teaching, because it made them think.

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