Is "gender identity" the new "soul"? Seeking a theologian to explain

[MsTiggywinkletoyou]

I'd appreciate an expert explanation of this religious/psychological phenomenon. Some people believe in souls, reincarnation, hell, angels, transubstantiation, etc - concepts that, while deeply meaningful to their lives, are not subject to material proof. Most of us, I'd hazard a guess, don't believe in these concepts. Some people believe in gender identity; most of those reading here don't.

I read the article by Michael Laidlaw, "The Gender Identity Phantom", alerted by another thread. He's an endocrinologist. He flatly says that gender identity "is a fantasy or superstitious belief. I say superstitious, because we are dealing with an entity that has no physical basis in reality." He draws parallels to mass delusions, "the madness of crowds...irrational economic fads such as the Dutch tulip mania and pseudo-scientific belief systems such as alchemy." gdworkinggroup.org/2018/10/24/the-gender-identity-phantom/

I'd like to draw a parallel between a belief in gender identity and belief in the soul. In many societies or cultures that are heavily religious, stating that you don't believe in souls is a disruptive act, ranging from mildly shocking to massively threatening of the status quo. I don't know enough theology to pursue this analogy, but I'd like to read someone who does.

I travel in woke crowds (my employer requests "preferred pronouns", friends cheer on teenagers' mastectomies). I guess I am assuming that most of these colleagues and friends do not believe in souls.

Is "gender identity" flourishing among people who have no interest in transitioning (i.e. boring suburban non-trans people) partly because we as a culture desire something to believe in?

Can someone with theological or philosophical training help me to find a way of saying, "I don't believe in souls or gender identity, and since you are sceptical enough not to believe in souls, you might want to re-think your implicit beliefs about gender identity too"?

I've just started reading the article on the link you provided and it's great. Thanks for sharing.

I once overheard a woman on the train speaking about her dog and its health issues. Apparently the dog used to howl during sleep and the woman put this down to how it was treated in a previous life.
I have absolutely no doubt there are genuine transgender people, who feel that they are trapped in the wrong body.
However, I also feel that the ever increasing numbers of people who are "coming out" as transgender is almost cult like or maybe a social contagion.
I was brought up as a Catholic, with a very strict Catholic mother (dad was an atheist), and religion doesn't sit with me very well, due to the fact that I was punished at school for constantly questioning it.
No religion is ever based on proof - easily proveable facts.
TRA's however do remind me of fundamentalist religious folks, who demand acceptance without questioning.

"I don't believe in souls or gender identity, and since you are sceptical enough not to believe in souls, you might want to re-think your implicit beliefs about gender identity too"

What's wrong with that? You already said it to us, why not say it to everyone?

Nobody can prove the existence of a gender identity, therefore it is a metaphysical belief. My (atheist) belief is that just as nobody has a soul, nobody has a gender identity either. Some people have a persistent, consistent desire to become the other sex. This desire can never be fulfilled since human beings cannot change sex. The desire is no more than evidence of the desire itself, not evidence of some innate inner essence.

Vicar here. So a jobbing theologian.

It is a part of Christian belief that there is some sort of afterlife or next life. What that looks like and how it works is one that gets debated a lot. If you can clarify what the question is I'll have a go at translating it into faith speak if it helps.

It difficult as I believe there's a lot being actively taught in universities. And what's essentially fiction is becoming fact. This is more about politics than theology. Identity politics. I know a lecturer who works in the area (but has refused to teach gender studies) who tried to point out the importance of people's identities to themselves. Which I do get to an extent.

When I think about Goths for example, and there's been at least one murder relating to hatred simply because they were goths, I can see how it can be very important to them. It also all washes off, new clothes can be bought so what is their identity then? Identity in reality is more about biological reality including disability, illness, talents, race, community experiences. Religion is slightly different but religion and tradition is also inherited (and then rejected by some).

However, gender identities are based on sexist stereotypes. Which is a political issue as it's part of the way patriarchal structures work against women as a class.

I prefer not to involve religion and souls etc; it's sexism conflated with material sex. Souls aren't gendered, brains aren't gendered, it's all constructed. Non binary is in a way the antidote (unless they also believe they are the opposite sex).

If we start to call it a religion it's genuinely in the realms of the flat earthers and also quite offensive to actual faiths.

I'm fine with queer theory when it's a harmless way of mixing up gender stereotypes though I truly don't see the point of it being a thing if you recognise sexist gender stereotypes for what they are.

I'm not sure if I've answered your question but I feel it's dangerous territory to appropriate religious theory for this.

It's fine to say I don't believe in gender as if you're saying you don't believe in fairies or you don't believe in the world being flat / round, I wouldn't hint you think their ideology is a religion as it could cement it further.

However, gender identities are based on sexist stereotypes.

The fact that nobody can explain what a gender identity is without invoking sexist stereotypes should make it obvious to everyone what is going on here. I find it astonishing that so many people can't see this.

I wouldn't hint you think their ideology is a religion as it could cement it further.

The point about it being a religious-type belief is that we don't live in a theocracy and we can't be forced to hold any religious belief, or abide by the rules of other people's religion. What we are being told is that it is everyone's human right to define their own gender identity, and that this can't be challenged by others. Elevating the holding of a gender identity to a human right gives it a higher standing than a religious belief.

We need to call gender identity ideology out for what it actually is - a quasi-religious belief, a superstition. None of us should be compelled to believe in this nonsensical ideology.

There has long been a conflict in western liberalism between the over-arching principle of equal rights for all and the demands of some often reactionary lobbies who demand special rights for me.

Pragmatically, we do allow exceptions. We are not France. Sikhs can go without crash helmets and carry daggers. It is thanks to Asian girls that all girls may now wear trousers to school.

For all that, we say there are limits. It is arbitrary and pragmatic because it is British.

What we are being told is that it is everyone's human right to define their own gender identity, and that this can't be challenged by others.

Yes I agree. I think I meant that you have a human right to a religious faith and others need to respect it though don't believe. But yes, this is why it's the issue of gender identity and how it's elevated to a human right.

The whole language around identity I've always found odd and alien. I just am the things I am. I'd love to identify out of several health issues but I can't. I try not to let them define me; they limit me at times as does being female at times. But they've never stopped me.

My brain is mine; my dh and best friend have often said "oh that's more like what a man would do/ like;" (eg loving sci fi, hating musicals and chick flicks) I always thought ; well no I'm a woman and I like those as did several pals of mine growing up.

You don't ID as gay or heterosexual, you just are.

But so many people grow up in very stereotyped environments, plus tv and media I feel have become much more so over the last 20-30 years, esp for children.

I meant that you have a human right to a religious faith and others need to respect it though don't believe.

I think people have the right to believe that they have a gender identity, just as they have the right to believe in God. But they shouldn't be able to compel others to believe those things, or to adhere to the requirements of their religion.

So if a male person believes that he has a female gender identity, that's fine, but he can't compel me to believe that he is female. The problem with the GRA is that it has compelled those of us who don't believe in the genderist ideology to participate in that belief system.

I think genderism is sexist, homophobic and regressive, but that doesn't mean that I think people shouldn't be allowed to believe in it - many mainstream religions could also be described in that way, and I support the right of people to believe in them as well. But they shouldn't have the right to compel me to join them.

The problem with stating that believing that you are transgender is the same as religious belief is that there are many ways of being religious and on a secular board like this transgender as religious belief is likely to be framed as transgender as fundamentalism. My way is the only way, I am right and you are wrong. Black and white thinking.

I'm not in that stream of Christianity. I'm a middle aged priest who has seen a lot and been told a lot and deals with uncertainty, doubt and ambiguity as people are wonderfully complex and lead less than perfect show home lives. My faith helps me frame this and work within the mess of life.

What struck me as I was thinking about the theology of death and the nature of the soul was that the black and white thinking and the tribalism that goes with it, plus the dominance of the patriarchy is what makes some forms of religion unhealthy for women. The toxic debates around gender identity do sound a lot like fundamentalist Christians telling mainstream Christians we are wrong, very wrong.

It feels so similar that maybe the current debate on transgender reflects a way that people think. This is not my area so I'm putting it forward tentatively. What we do see in religious faith are stages that people typically go through. First they believe everything their parents tell them but then they start to form their own opinions but it can be very tribal and people outside of the box are othered and wrong. It shows as those very adolescent views that only my church is the right one, or only my form of martial art, or my form of music or my understanding of gender. Most people mature to see the value in other points of view but some people don't grow out of this stage. I see it often enough in faith circles.

This is a simplified chart but you could put many strongly held beliefs in this framework and it would give you passionate black and white thinkers who are young and mature people who have seen a lot and reflected on it and come to a different view.

www.psychologycharts.com/james-fowler-stages-of-faith.html

One thing I've found in religious life is that people act like people and that the same odd behaviour you find in churches you find in political parties or local interest groups. Psychology helps a lot.

In the transgender debate there are questions of identity, a culture that is about getting us to find our identity in what we buy plus a loss of the meta narrative of religion, politics and national groupings that are causing all sorts of uncertainty.

Maybe that helps. If not ignore it. I have to do a service now. Enjoy your Sunday.

Mostly - great post and explains well what I am encountering in my own life. I don't have a problem with anyone's beliefs, however strange or different from mine, but this one leads to surgery and taking artificial hormones, likely sterilisation, without good evidence of good outcomes, and is being supported by the NHS and the rest of the public sector as something to be welcomed and encouraged...

Such an interesting thread.

Fascinating post, mostlydrinkstea .

Someone said upthread that you don't ID as homo- or heterosexual, you just are. I remember hearing a comedian once saying they ID'd as bi, even though they'd never had a same-sex relationship. I'm sure if she had had such a relationship she would have just said "I am". So "I identify as" seems to mean 'I'm not, but I wish I were/think I should be/think of myself as.'

I've heard people say "I don't identify as a grey-haired person." Well, do you have grey hairs, or not? I really dislike the imprecision of this language and ended up in an interesting discussion with DD when she said she identified as Ravenclaw, despite being sorted into Griffindor.

Back to the OP, I think you already have the words you're looking for. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it makes sense that gender identity is a belief. Funnily enough, I do have a belief in souls. But I recognose that it is a personal belief. I recognise it is not a fact (i.e. no evidence). I know that my beliefs have changed over time and with experience. I know that some people share the same belief and some don't and that's good. I am happy to test and challenge my beliefs. And, crucially, I do not insist that other people believe the things I believe, and I do not ask laws to be made on the basis of my belief.

I work in an area (nothing to do with faith or religion) where I get to investigate the ideas and beliefs people hold about themselves. It is fascinating. Our ideas have the most profund impact on how we think and act. We all construct these systems of ideas/beliefs about ourselves, about the world, and about how we interact with the world. It could be as simple as someone telling themself 'I'm not a singer" despite having a lovely voice, or someone believing they can't get out of a chair without making that grunting noise! But acting according to our own beliefs seems pretty universal in my experience, which is of course why it is so important to interrogate those beliefs.

I am sure the concept of 'gender identity' is useful to many people, hence being widely embraced. But while it remains in the realm the realm of belief rather than the realm of physical reality, it's not a basis on which to make profound changes to our legal system.

I wouldn't hint you think their ideology is a religion as it could cement it further

Personally I can't understand gender ideology without first and foremost processing it as a type of religious belief.

There are some differences, gender ideology does not have a deity, there is no obvious type of structural heirearchy with various roles for people eg priest or nun or whatever, and they don't have obvious rituals.

So it's different.

However, everything about gender ideology is based on evidence-lacking false logic, is entirely dependent intrapersonal commentary, completely detatched from material reality and requires a mindset almost identical to people who believe God created the earth in 7 days and Angels will take us to heaven after we die.

You also see similarities between gender ideology rhetoric and other cults in how they recruit and retain people within the belief system.

A cult can be religious or political.

A cult requires blind faith.

I think this business of 'being born in the wrong body' is an attempt to almost legitimise feels by giving it the status of religion.

That's what cults do. They argue in whatever way they can that they are legitimate.

What you can not get away from is that talking about gendered souls IS an article of faith. It is a belief nothing more. That doesn't mean it is necessarily religious.

Worth pointing out religious cults are NOT accepted as religions.

The belief that humans have a soul that is male or female and sometimes God makes a mistake and puts a female soul in a male body is very anti-Christian in two ways, first that God makes mistakes and second that souls are gendered.

Yet we find Christian families in America whole heartedly embracing trans ideology, what you find behind that usually comes down to old fashioned conservative homophobia (they'd rather have a transgirl attracted to boys for a child than a boy attracted to boys) and fear of the non-conforming, rather than religious beliefs.

The problem with comparing it to religious (particularly Judeo/Christian notions of the soul is that these beliefs have so often been misconstrued and adapted (often for monetary gain) throughout history. So in first century Christianity, there wouldn't have been the idea of the soul as some kind of disembodied essense, because the 'soul' or 'spirit' would have been seen simply as one with the body, and not seperated from it. The separation of body and soul was more of a Platonic framework and then came more into play with sects like gnosticism a bit later on, where the body was seen as corrupted and evil, and the soul was the pure essence of a person and thus would be the part to go on to some kind of floaty afterlife seperated from that 'bad' physical body.

In Christianity, the narrative of the afterlife is one of bodily resurrection, which was initiated by Jesus' own bodily resurrection. He wasn't a disembodied soul or ghost, but a person with a physical body, scars and all. And the gospel story is one of restoration of body and soul and spirit together: they are not separate entities which can somehow become mixed up or made a mistake with. In first century Judaism and fledgling Christianity this concept would simply be anathema.

While the Bible speaks of the soul, spirit etc, it frames it as the part of us that responds to God, the 'psyche' that is the expression of our deepest beings, but not an essence which can be removed in some way. The emphasis is on us as whole beings.

Genderism is a cult which replays more of the Platonic/Cartesian narrative of soul as a separate entity. I completely agree with the poster who says that it has been elevated beyond a religious belief to a human right which everyone must validate, and also with @mostlydrinkstea that it is reminiscent of fundamentalists in a religion telling others they are wrong, and this is what they must believe/follow.

So it is slightly more complicated than the comparison with religion as elevating a soul as essence rather than a soul as part of the whole. In my opinion as a Christian, the gender identity dogma is one that is utterly opposed to the gospel I hold to which is one of affirming the whole person in their created sexed body, and drawing that person to transformation within their body rather than out of it. While this is my position as a theologian and feminist, I also recognise the crippling gender dysphoria that some people have, and understand it as part of the messy and broken world we live in.

Some food for thought:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCIENTOLOGY_IN_GERMANY
As of 2017, German courts have so far not resolved whether to accord Scientology the legal status of a religious or worldview community, and different courts have reached contradictory conclusions.[3] The German domestic intelligence service is constantly monitoring the organization and mention them in their annual review about anticonstitutional activities. The German government does not recognize Scientology as a religion; rather, it views it as an abusive business masquerading as a religion and believes that it pursues political goals that conflict with the values enshrined in the German constitution. This stance has been criticized, most notably by the U.S. government.

Scientologists in Germany face specific political and economic restrictions. They are barred from membership in some major political parties, and businesses and other employers use so-called "sect filters" to expose a prospective business partner's or employee's association with the organization.

Also worth pointing out the major difference between cults and religions is the refusal to allow free theological discussion.

This is an interesting article from a theologian about the place of the soul in Christianity, and the departure from the dualist position which formed over centuries:
ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/mind-spirit-soul-and-body/

Really appreciate the vicar’s post, thank you.

This is a tricky one in so many ways, especially as many have already said you choose to talk about “soul” in a Christian context as the theology varies tremendously.

For example as Catholics we don’t separate the soul from the body, this is considered heresy. We are embodied. The idea that that matter is dirty and bad and the soul has to rise above the earthiness of life is completely anti-Catholic which is very sacramental. That’s why the way we express our faith has lots of “smells and bells”, the body is good and we celebrate the beauty of “stuff” or matter, the natural world and the incredible intricacy of the universe.

In terms of Catholic theology then the soul cannot be separated from the body and the idea that you are in the “wrong” body makes no theological sense. Sorry, I can’t get much closer than that! As you say you need a true theologian.

What you can not get away from is that talking about gendered souls IS an article of faith. It is a belief nothing more. That doesn't mean it is necessarily religious.

I concur.

The other thing to note is that "debate" doesn't deprogramme cultists. Referring to gender identity theory as a neo-religion or a cult won't change the minds of the faithful.

If that's how you see what's happening - it's how I see a lot of what's happening - and you want to describe it thusly, go ahead. But the cultists won't listen. Perhaps one day, when they've finally listened to the inner voice that's been telling them this is a pile of horse shit all along, they'll remember what you said. But not until then.

The disinterested or on the fence will be able to hear you, however, so it's certainly worth putting it in these terms to them.

Thanks oldcrone you explain it well and better than me. And many other pp!

Yes it's demanding others believe too.

This is an interesting article from a theologian about the place of the soul in Christianity, and the departure from the dualist position which formed over centuries:

Thank you @madhair (!) that link was very useful for me

Thanks all, especially @madhairday and @mostlydrinkstea. I tried reading that linked article, but it is a bit beyond me at the moment; maybe I'll try again on a goodbrainday or after a strongerdrinkthantea.

The discussion above is rich and helpful. Just to clarify, I am not thinking of approaching soul-believers and saying "Gender is as unlikely as souls." I was tentatively thinking of the possibility of approaching soul-unbeliever friends with this. I agree it would be counter-productive to confront those too solidly embedded in genderism with this analogy. It might help those on the fence, though.