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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trigger warning - paedophilia : Childhood ‘Innocence’ is Not Ideal: Virtue Ethics and Child–Adult Sex

76 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/03/2019 14:12

I apologise for posting such grotesque quotes, and for posting this at all. I felt it was important to highlight that paedophilia is not hiding in the shadows, it is openly publishing pieces designed to persuade in journals.

Some people will read this sort of thing and nod along, agreeing. Many people are incapable of critical thinking and this sort of word salad can seem very "scientific".

I haven't read the article in depth but the author seems to argue that ages of consent are a social construct, not based on any evidence. That child-adult relationships are common in animals, and in other cultures. That peoples view of paedophilia is not based on evidence. That children should learn about healthy sexual relationships in a practical way from trusted adults including the parents.

Don't read the quotes or linked article unless you have a strong stomach.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12119-018-9519-1#citeas
I will argue that (a) child–adult casual sexual pleasure as “play” is morally permissible and (b) that child–adult sexual encounters, especially when they are part of a deeper relationship than might be suggested by the word “play”, need not be inimical to lives lived with the highest of ideals, and may indeed help define and contribute to those ideals.

But why they should not be regarded as persons specifically for the purpose of sexual activity requires independent justification. Instead of asserting a priori that children are not persons, therefore they cannot do x, or have type of relations y, with another person, their capacities for x or y first need to be established empirically, and their personhood status then determined accordingly.

Secondly, the assertion that children are incapable of reciprocal sexual relations is empirically unfounded. Where is the evidence?

Who benefits, then, in post-patriarchal societies, from the continued defence of “innocence” and virginity? In what respect is the radical separation of childhood from adulthood functional and healthy, as opposed to the alternative, and surely more realistic, view that children’s capacities and understanding develop gradually over time, in relation to sex as much as they do with everything else? While there is an unarguable case for saying that the beginning of reproductive capacity marks a clear developmental landmark, there are also grounds for claiming this is something children need to be made aware of beforehand, and that it may be beneficial (as discussed below) to practise intimate relationships well before the time when there might be reproductive consequences

Malón continues: “The pedophile desires not the person, but the person at a stage in their life in which they have not yet fully developed as a person” (Malón 2017, p. 255). We have already seen, above, that such development may be morally relevant if the child is to be held to account (the age of criminal responsibility was mentioned) but it otherwise lacks traction as an ethical issue.

Children will inevitably outgrow their sexual attractiveness to the exclusive paedophile when secondary sexual characteristics develop, such as genital hair. Additionally, the onrush of developmental hormones may temporarily blight their looks through the ravages of acne

The idea of a sexual “sandpit” may be invoked, where sexual and relationship learning can take place without the burden of adult responsibilities, just as, traditionally, little girls have long been able to rehearse motherhood by playing with dolls.

OP posts:
CoolCarrie · 06/03/2019 14:13

What the fuck? That is shocking.

Lumene · 06/03/2019 14:21

!

Nutellavore · 06/03/2019 14:25

The author is a convicted pedophile and former chairman of PIE. See this wikipedia entry:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_O'Carroll

No idea why this is in a scholarly journal, published by Springer no less. He should have declared an interest!

scotsheather · 06/03/2019 14:31

?

RepealTheGRA · 06/03/2019 14:43

The only thing that has persuaded me of is that in very rare cases there may be an argument for the death penalty.

RomanticFatigue · 06/03/2019 14:50

I didn't know who this person was, I've just read his wiki page and feel sick now. How do we share the same air as these people?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/03/2019 14:54

The author is a convicted pedophile and former chairman of PIE

And not remotely ashamed of his beliefs, or of trying to convert others to them.

That is what is so shocking. It's all so open and he's openly arguing that the age of consent should be like the age of criminal responsibility. That children have the capacity to consent to sexual relationships with adults, and that people who suggest otherwise are somehow repressed, victims of the patriarchy Hmm.

I think what it got me wondering is that this individual is so "out and proud" and sure of their beliefs, propped up with some sort of pseudoscience, and the whole CSA enquiry looking at Westminster coverups , how many of these people are there, and how many of them are in positions of influence?

OP posts:
Threewheeler1 · 06/03/2019 14:59

RepealTheGRA
I have the same reaction. At the very least, a special place in hell.

How does this even get published?

Ereshkigal · 06/03/2019 15:00

Someone tried to quote that on an AIBU thread about paedophiles on Twitter once. In defence of their view.

littlbrowndog · 06/03/2019 15:02

The age of consent lowered to 4 years old

I can’t even think of that.

Ahardmanisgoodtofind · 06/03/2019 15:02

The only thing that has persuaded me of is that in very rare cases there may be an argument for the death penalty.

^^this 100%

Lemoncakestrudel · 06/03/2019 16:37
  1. this author disputes the need to protect virginity as if it bot important, yet it is precisely this desire to steal a child’s virginity that brings many men into the paedophile cloud.

  2. suggesting that a child is a non-person and giving adults access to these children would grace them with personhood? Balderdash! It is precisely because of our desire to protect children’s personhood that causes us to protect them.

As has been shown time and again, being sexually abused robs a person of themselves.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 06/03/2019 16:45

The argument that sexual contact between children and adults can be 'healthy' is blown out of the water by reams and reams of peer reviewed evidence of long-term mental health impacts on survivors of sexual abuse in childhood.

GoldenWonderwall · 06/03/2019 16:56

Fuck’s sake. I despair of the human race. ‘Oh let me use my academic language, education and research platform to explain why it’s morally wrong to not let men rape children! ‘ Scumbag. And even more scumbaggery are all the other academics stroking their beards and letting this shit be legitimised.

Goosefoot · 06/03/2019 17:21

The trouble with looking at survivor's stories is that they generally happen in a context where the behaviour was non-normative. Guys like this will then ask the question, in a society that did not have those taboos, what would be the effect?

That doesn't seem to be quite so clear. We can point to cultures for sure where children are exploited sexually by adults and it is very negative, and I think that the best argument is probably that there is just too much scope for exploitation in such a situation.

But as westerners, I think we tend to have a very visceral reaction that goes well beyond that, that there is something much more inherently negative about children having sexual interactions, and we sometimes even extend it up into the teen years to some extent, and to situations between children.

I think finding evidence for that kind of harm is more difficult.

Whatisthisfuckery · 06/03/2019 17:32

Fucking sick vile man. I don’t care what your dick thinks, fucking kids is abhorrent, and illegal, and you know what would happen if you came out into any public space and spouted this filth. There’s nowt wrong with you that a good long rope wouldn’t sort out.

FermatsTheorem · 06/03/2019 17:45

Nutellavore the first thing I did when I clicked on the abstract was to think "hmm, suspicious, why no affiliation to an academic institution?", so then I googled Thomas O'Carroll and the first hit revealed that he was a convicted paedophile.

Something has gone seriously wrong with due diligence in the peer-review/editorial stage of that journal.

This is how the journal describes its remit:
"Sexuality & Culture offers an international forum for analysis of ethical, cultural, psychological, social, and political issues related to sexual relationships and sexual behavior. Coverage extends to sexual consent and sexual responsibility; harassment and freedom of speech; privacy; censorship and pornography; impact of film and literature on sexual relationships; and university and governmental regulation of intimate relationships, such as interracial relationships and student-professor relationships."

"This interdisciplinary journal publishes peer-reviewed theoretical articles based on logical argumentation and literature review and empirical articles describing the results of experiments and surveys on the ethical, cultural, psychological, social, or political implications of sexual behavior. The journal also publishes book reviews, and critical reviews of literature and other media."

Its editorial board can be found here:
www.springer.com/social+sciences/journal/12119?detailsPage=editorialBoard

Its ethics policy (sic) is here:
www.springer.com/social+sciences/journal/12119/PSE?detailsPage=societies

I wonder how the author's conviction for for child sex offences (which, by their very nature, cannot include any meaningful consent on the part of the victim) squares with this comment in the Journal's ethics policy: "This journal has a Conflict of Interest policy in place and complies with international, national and institutional standards on research involving Human Participants and Animals and Informed Consent."

Lurking journos - There is a story here. A big story.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 06/03/2019 17:53

The trouble with looking at survivor's stories is that they generally happen in a context where the behaviour was non-normative

You seem to be suggesting that we should take seriously a paedophile's argument for dismissing the lived experience of abuse survivors.

FermatsTheorem · 06/03/2019 18:07

Goosefoot what is your vested interest in defending paedophilia?

GoldenWonderwall · 06/03/2019 18:30

I’m very glad the Victorians realised children cannot consent to sex because in today’s woke society apparently it infantilses them to say they cannot consent to sex with adult men! How very dare the laws of the land tell prepubescent children they cannot consent to being abused by adult men. Literally sick as fuck and as transparent as fuck.

I’ll give you £5 if you can show me a prepubescent child or any child under the age of consent that has been damaged in any way by laws preventing them from being abused by adult men.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 06/03/2019 18:41

Do you know what Goosefoot. I reckon having a visceral reaction to the sexual abuse of children is a good thing. I reckon that society would be a lot safer and happier if these 'visceral reactions' from parents. women, girls, children, men and everyone were recognised as good and the right reaction to have.
Rape and child / adult sexual abuse apologists can FOTTFSOFATFOSM.

PrestonsFlowers · 06/03/2019 18:47

On the Tavistock thread, I asked the question about the drugs given to children, who does it benefit? This is the answer I came up with.
I couldn't articulate it because I was so fucking angry about the fact that children have been given life altering drugs

PrestonsFlowers · 06/03/2019 18:48

Im still not very articulate now

RepealTheGRA · 06/03/2019 18:49

I’m good with my visceral reaction to child abuse, it protects my own children, other children in my care and benefits society as a whole.

spaniorita · 06/03/2019 18:51

Give me strength. No remorse, no shame, no hesitance. Clearly whomever wrote this is abusing a child somewhere and that child or children desperately need help. I feel so sick.