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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trigger warning - paedophilia : Childhood ‘Innocence’ is Not Ideal: Virtue Ethics and Child–Adult Sex

76 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/03/2019 14:12

I apologise for posting such grotesque quotes, and for posting this at all. I felt it was important to highlight that paedophilia is not hiding in the shadows, it is openly publishing pieces designed to persuade in journals.

Some people will read this sort of thing and nod along, agreeing. Many people are incapable of critical thinking and this sort of word salad can seem very "scientific".

I haven't read the article in depth but the author seems to argue that ages of consent are a social construct, not based on any evidence. That child-adult relationships are common in animals, and in other cultures. That peoples view of paedophilia is not based on evidence. That children should learn about healthy sexual relationships in a practical way from trusted adults including the parents.

Don't read the quotes or linked article unless you have a strong stomach.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12119-018-9519-1#citeas
I will argue that (a) child–adult casual sexual pleasure as “play” is morally permissible and (b) that child–adult sexual encounters, especially when they are part of a deeper relationship than might be suggested by the word “play”, need not be inimical to lives lived with the highest of ideals, and may indeed help define and contribute to those ideals.

But why they should not be regarded as persons specifically for the purpose of sexual activity requires independent justification. Instead of asserting a priori that children are not persons, therefore they cannot do x, or have type of relations y, with another person, their capacities for x or y first need to be established empirically, and their personhood status then determined accordingly.

Secondly, the assertion that children are incapable of reciprocal sexual relations is empirically unfounded. Where is the evidence?

Who benefits, then, in post-patriarchal societies, from the continued defence of “innocence” and virginity? In what respect is the radical separation of childhood from adulthood functional and healthy, as opposed to the alternative, and surely more realistic, view that children’s capacities and understanding develop gradually over time, in relation to sex as much as they do with everything else? While there is an unarguable case for saying that the beginning of reproductive capacity marks a clear developmental landmark, there are also grounds for claiming this is something children need to be made aware of beforehand, and that it may be beneficial (as discussed below) to practise intimate relationships well before the time when there might be reproductive consequences

Malón continues: “The pedophile desires not the person, but the person at a stage in their life in which they have not yet fully developed as a person” (Malón 2017, p. 255). We have already seen, above, that such development may be morally relevant if the child is to be held to account (the age of criminal responsibility was mentioned) but it otherwise lacks traction as an ethical issue.

Children will inevitably outgrow their sexual attractiveness to the exclusive paedophile when secondary sexual characteristics develop, such as genital hair. Additionally, the onrush of developmental hormones may temporarily blight their looks through the ravages of acne

The idea of a sexual “sandpit” may be invoked, where sexual and relationship learning can take place without the burden of adult responsibilities, just as, traditionally, little girls have long been able to rehearse motherhood by playing with dolls.

OP posts:
GoldenWonderwall · 07/03/2019 12:39

The thing is, is it not an adult survivor of child abuse saying their opinion is that on balance, it would have been more damaging for them not to have been abused. And it is not a peer reviewed piece of research into adult survivors of child abuse, their lived experience and how they feel they would have been infantalised by not being able to take part in abuse. It’s a convicted abuser, trying to use academia to argue that there is potentially a moral argument to letting children be abused because not to do so denies them agency. So it’s not a well argued case on their part that deserves consideration, it’s a wolf saying maybe the lambs like being eaten so let’s get on with it. The faulty logic is on their side in this instance.

AngelsSins · 07/03/2019 14:11

These articles always come from the point of view of a perverts dick. They try to justify why they should be able to rape kids, why that would be a good thing. Well how about some thought about the child’s point of view?

So has a 6 year old got the mental capacity to know what they’d be consenting to? Are 6 years olds just as resistant to manipulation as a 40 year old? Could a 6 year old have the ability to insist on a condom? What if they can’t and the adult infects them? What if they suffer internal injuries? What do these perverts think about that? Any thoughts? And in slightly older children who could get pregnant, any concerns for the higher risk of death in child birth? Who looks after and pays for the baby? Does the child still get an education or do they have to leave school?

And if these children are so intelligent and able to make such choices, why not give them the vote? Why not send them to war or work to earn their keep?

But no, let’s not ask those questions because they don’t really give a shit about kids and what’s in their best interest, it’s all about them and validating their sick fetish. Repulsive.

EarlyModernParent · 07/03/2019 19:53

I think you are being a bit unfair to Goosefoot. As I read her posts, she is not suggesting for one moment that adult-child sex might be harmless. She is suggesting that it is important to have "logically strong" and "evidenced" arguments against it to win the debate against the Tom O'Carrolls of this world and be seen to win it. To persuade.

I agree with that, while at the same timeagreeing with others that evidence from those who suffered it is very valuable.

GrumpyGran8 · 07/03/2019 21:21

The author is a convicted pedophile and former chairman of PIE. See this wikipedia entry:
I thought the arguments sounded familiar. This person has (or had) a blog which i read a few times. He writes very persuasively and intelligently - I had to keep reminding myself of that line from the South Park episode on NAMBLA: "But you have sex with children!!!"

There is no possible way a child can give informed consent to sex with an adult. NONE.

Tanith · 08/03/2019 08:37

The articles linked from this NSPCC webpage include studies into the long term effects of child abuse, including sexual abuse.

www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-abuse-and-neglect/child-sexual-abuse/signs-symptoms-effects/

ChattyLion · 08/03/2019 09:13

Jesus.

Lamaha · 08/03/2019 09:18

How about we return the focus to where it should be: on the perpetrator. What sort of sad fuck-up of an adult knowingly victimises a child for their own pleasure, in the knowledge that that child is a child and therefore cannot give (and indeed is not cognitively capable of giving) consent?

Exactly. Mentally healthy adults don't lust after children. We seek sexual partners among our peers. Yes, and I know Goosefoot might argue as to who defines what is a 'mentally healthy adult' etc etc etc.
It's woke argumentation.

BTW there is a tribe in India where young girls are routinely sexually initiated by adult men. It's a tribe that produces prostitutes; i other words they are raised into prostitution. I don't want to go gooling for it because as ever the thought of it makes me gag.

Bowlofbabelfish · 08/03/2019 09:25

goose children cannot consent. Their bodies and minds are not physically capable of having sex with adults without negative consequences. Without being too graphic, any surgeon working with abused children will be able to tell you about the physical damage this does. Mental damage comes from the abuse of the power dynamic, loss of control etc. it is clear and evidenced that the are NO positives and only negatives to child/adult sexual contact.

PIE manipulated the wanting of people to be ‘progressive’ and ‘woke’ - they positioned themselves as being progressive and latched their cause into genuine progressive causes so that denailnof one was denial of the other. They called anyone questioning anti progressive.

Do you see the relevance of these tactics today?

Huge lack of due diligence on the part of the Editors. How that got past them is jaw dropping.

And to those asking how prevalent this is - wasn’t there work recently that said 5% of men had paedophilic urges? The answer is very prevalent.

I can’t even say what I’d like to say about this because similar posts have been deleted.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 08/03/2019 09:33

As my friend, a survivor of terrible CSA, likes to remind people - pedophiles don't love kids. Pedophiles hate kids. Hurting children, degrading innocence, is what they lust after.

They are also liars.

Lamaha · 08/03/2019 09:38

Because they look at their own child and finally, finally realise that children can never, ever be complicit in, or consenting to abuse. And that includes the child they once were.

But also, many go on to abuse their own children...

NellieEllie · 08/03/2019 09:45

I can see what Goose is getting at to an extent. We all have a visceral revulsion to the idea of an adult having sex with a child. Obviously we do. Who the hell wouldnt?
But, cultural shifts can be huge. Imagine 20 yrs ago, the idea of a woman being arrested for saying that someone with a male body is not a woman. Or children being educated at school about taking hormones and having surgery so they can “change gender”.?
Maybe we also need to articulate arguments in relation to stuff like this, something that is SO abhorrent we cannot imagine why on earth we would ever need to do so.
But also, I am for freedom of speech, but giving a platform to this is just not right. I feel he is basically inciting others and providing arguments, however twisted to perpetrators.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 08/03/2019 09:57

Trying to normalise the basic boundaries on behaviour that a civilised society cannot tolerate as 'cultural shifts' is about adults trying to get around boundaries on their behaviour that they find inconvenient. It tries to frame taboos as backward and naiive, and boundaries and rules as oppressive and unaccepting.

Not allowing people to commit murder for example. Gosh. What a limit on personal expression and interaction between two people who - yep, you could dance linguistic progressive bullshit around that one all day.

The biggest problem in society at the moment is the fear of saying 'no' and dealing with the resulting tantrums. A society has to have rules, it has to have boundaries, it has to look at the needs of the many when setting those rules and boundaries. And it has to be intelligent enough to know when it's being manipulated and groomed by an adult who wants to be able to use other people in the way that pleases them without anyone making them feel the shame or social outcasting that is the natural response that inhibits unacceptable, intolerable behaviour.

RepealTheGRA · 08/03/2019 10:05

Ffs! It’s well established that boundaries are good for children and teenagers.

Given some of the boundary pushing bullshit we’re currently seeing from alledged adults I think boundaries are pretty good for adults too. In fact that is also well established, they’re called ‘Laws’.

RosieBenenden · 08/03/2019 10:11

Disgusting in every way imaginable. Even when a child is 16/17 I have seen at first hand how a teacher can form a relationship sexually with them but which is completely corrosive, manipulative and inappropriate due to power imbalance. It destroys the victim's life. Sex is for adults - NEVER for children.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 08/03/2019 10:13

they’re called ‘Laws’.

And isn't it interesting that it's not ones around theft or speeding or fraud that are being gone after as infringing personal freedoms? It's all the ones that inhibit a person's sexual freedoms that use or harm others.

Lamaha · 08/03/2019 10:48

And isn't it interesting that it's not ones around theft or speeding or fraud that are being gone after as infringing personal freedoms? It's all the ones that inhibit a person's sexual freedoms that use or harm others.

It's ALL about adults wanting legal access to children. It's not about the children at all, or what harms or doesn't harm them. Let's not be distracted. It's about adult (99% male) pervy desires.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/03/2019 12:27

Trying to normalise the basic boundaries on behaviour that a civilised society cannot tolerate as 'cultural shifts

That's an interesting point. The Overton window is always shifting based on how society views things as a whole. What is really interesting is when a subgroup tries to shift the Overton window against general resistance for their own ends, see PIE, or TRAs for example.

OP posts:
ILoveCrunchyAutumnLeaves · 08/03/2019 13:01

Lamaha I think you should look at the statistics before casting judgements on the abused go on to abuse. Napac estimates there are 11 million survivors in the UK 16% of the population (it's known that the real figure is likely to be far higher). If the majority went on to abuse as you suggest then in the span of a few decades every child in the UK would of experienced CSA and it would already have hit 100% a very long time ago. 21% of abused men go on to abuse and 4 % of abused women go on to abuse. Same goes for it happens in generations of families all common social beliefs that victim blame survivors.

I'm a survivor it is true to say the first few minutes I held my newborn in my arms I looked at my mother and had a realisation of how horrific my abuse/childhood had been. As that feeling of overwhelming love and protection for my child in my arms made me realise that is how parents are supposed to feel.

I have thought on this many times I went to the Police when my son was 6 months old as I found out he was living with 2 other young girls and he got 20 years for historical abuse. The abuse ruins lives the only way I can describe it, is to say I spend my life putting my mask on to face the world and pretending I'm fine only when I had my son I couldn't pretend anymore I had to face it. I wasn't pretending the past was ok or normal but that I was as a person each day to simply function. I still do it now. As it's the only thing that works however now stories of abuse pop up everywhere it is harder to avoid.

I've tried every type of counselling, tablets, holidays, had a good healthy adult life, had justice but it still plagues my mind

Lamaha · 08/03/2019 13:13

If the majority went on to abuse as you suggest then in the span of a few decades every child in the UK would of experienced CSA and it would already have hit 100% a very long time ago. 21% of abused men go on to abuse and 4 % of abused women go on to abuse. Same goes for it happens in generations of families all common social beliefs that victim blame survivors.

I think you are confusing my statements. I did not say the majority of abused children went on to be abusers. I said that "many" do. No statistics.

The 99% stat I mentioned above is about the male-female division of all abusers. Yes, it's a guess, but I still believe that among child abusers males are overproportionally represented
Though I have been reading a lot about female teachers seducing teenage boys of late so maybe Western culture is changing.
Otherwise? It's almost all men.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 08/03/2019 14:09

Flowers ILove

Moralitym1n1 · 08/03/2019 17:44

*But also, many go on to abuse their own children..."

Do they though?

"I was abused myself as a child" seems to be the default goto by child abusers to get sympathy band leniency.

Moralitym1n1 · 08/03/2019 17:46

"Oh the vicious circle, oh they were doomed to repeat, oh their perception of normal was altered, oh the trauma"! the nsive, armchair psychologists shout

Funny how do many victims of CSA, esp female ones manage not to abuse children.

Moralitym1n1 · 08/03/2019 17:47

*so many

Moralitym1n1 · 08/03/2019 17:50

I maintain a strong scepticism about child abusers who claim to have been abused, those are very likely not true figures.

Lamaha · 08/03/2019 18:05

I definitely don't think that females who were abused go on to abuse, and should have clarified that.
But males? I used to have paedophile clients as a social worker, males who had been convicted and served their sentence, and the majority had verified childhoods of abuse -- they'd been in "the system". So I admit I'm probably be prejudiced here...