Have you ever been harassed on public transport in London because of your gender identity?

[MsTiggywinkletoyou]

I came across this survey, by a "male to female transgender design student", "conducting research into gender non conformity on public transport in London". No date, but the Survey Monkey link is still live. "My research group and I would really appreciate it if you could share your experiences with us." Nowhere does it define "gender identity" or ask what your [i.e. whoever will be filling it in] gender identity is. Pretty piss-poor research design if you ask me, which clearly they didn't. It struck me, however, that I have indeed been harassed on buses and the Tube because I am a woman, and other people correctly identify this. I have also had the temerity to flaunt my gender non-conformity, by getting onto public transport with short hair and no make-up. Four quick questions here: www.surveymonkey.com/r/5VWH5H2

Exactly how should a woman write that? Please tell me, it's highly interesting in a thread about non-conformity. I didn't say I thought that, I said "suspect" as I always find it odd, but it does happen!

I suspect that you lost my train of thought because you struggle with reading more than a few lines. That was unecessarily aggressive, no matter what your sex or gender!

I'm sorry how would it help the flow of conversation? Do you normally pick up posters on their country of origin? Sometimes, if it becomes apparent that our frames of reference may be different, due to our cuturla mores, our socialisation.

Do you believe all Americans have the same perspective on things? No, but I do think Americans have a unique social milieu, as do all nations

Please do add xenophobia to transphobia. I wasn't, maybe you are!

Maybe you can make a joke about the disabled and ensure we end up in The Guardian tomorrow. Erm.. nope, never mind!

I've been in the UK my whole adult life and had my children here. let me know how long I can be here before I'm allowed an opinion Who is tryng to stop you having an opinioin? I was just trying to find out if we had a different perpsctive based on our social upbringing. We do...

I've just filled it in stating I do not have a gender identity, I have an observable biological sex.

God, aggressive and I write like a man. I must have male soul.

I was just trying to find out if we had a different perpsctive based on our social upbringing. We do...

So, if I were British we'd have the same perspective based on our social upbringing?

Because social class is much the same through the whole of the UK? No social or economic class system. Same through England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Interesting thought If I were going to guess the person who'd never been to the UK though I'd say it was the person who came out with that nonsense.

No, this thread is making the blindingly obvious point that nobody has been harassed on public transport in London due to their "gender identity" because, even in the opinion of the Gender Faithful, "gender identity" is invisible

I agree it is a poorly worded survey but it does specifically say "gender non-conformity" right at the top. This person hasn't learned the terminology, I agree. But we do all know generally that this person isn't talking about sexual harassment of women, but of the sort of harassment, that is usually linked with homophobia or genuine transphobia. So to post on his/her survey about sexual harassment to do with being female is pointless and goady. Sex and gender aren't the same, it looks like we're the ones who are confused about that,.

This is why I thought it would have been interesting if we had discussed what counts as gender non-conformity for the purposes of the survey. Feminist regularly don't conform to gender but it seems to be that when men do it's special.

Can anyone show me what ‘doing female properly’ looks like though?

God, aggressive and I write like a man. I must have male soul. No, you're just an aggressive poster. No gender or sex required for Keyboard Warriors!

So, if I were British we'd have the same perspective based on our social upbringing? Oh stop it! I explained quite clearly what I meant. I wasn't talking about homogeneity, I was talking about cultural mores, socialisation!

I didn't mention class at all! I merely enquired to see if your use of asshole was indicative of your being American. Which it turns out was true. There are many other differences in turns of phrase, perspectives etc that can influence how a conversation flows. I as asking so I could ignore them and concentrate on what you were saying rathe than how you were saying it...

But fuck it, you seem determined to be affronted! I'm off to work!

I answered the survey and said "No, but I have been harassed numerous times due to my sex"
V satisfying

There are many other differences in turns of phrase, perspectives etc that can influence how a conversation flows. I as asking so I could ignore them and concentrate on what you were saying rathe than how you were saying it...

If you don't want people to think you're struggling with comprehension stop saying things that imply you struggle with comprehension.

But because I'm nice, I'll make it easy for you. Take everything I just said... then replace Asshole with Arsehole.

Now you should be able to understand me properly and help the "discussion flow" Oh and to confuse you further Canadians also say asshole. As do many non English speakers who've learned English as a second language. Maybe you can start a thread asking where people are from so as to better understand their cultural baggage. Safe to assume that a lot of MNers are American/ Canadian though.

Can anyone show me what ‘doing female properly’ looks like though?

In my house it looks a bit like responding to one of Dh's farts with one that can shake the room sufficiently to scare the cat.

I may be doing it wrong though. I don't know.

I have most definitely been harassed for my sex but I have also been harassed due to not performing feminity properly. Is that because I was being gender non conforming or because as a woman that they didn't want to fuck I was pointless? I don't think the same guys who would do that to me are necessarily the same ones who would harrass a man they perceived to be gay though. That's homophobia and maybe to do with their own sexuality? I never thought properly if the two were actually the same things.

If you're a lesbian who is assaulted sexually while also being called names like that.. I'd say you were attacked for both reasons.

But many of those names still aren't for 'gender identity' - but for perceived sexuality based on presentation stereotypes.

If someone calls me a 'bloody woman' then that's potentially abuse of me based on my gender identity, or my sex - and crucially, the person saying it can't know that - only I know my gender identity (or lack thereof) - which is why this survey is nonsense unless the terms are defined.

I was under the impression that according to the genderists, gender identity isn't the same as gender expression so how would the harasser know how one identified and then proceed accordingly - can they read people's minds? Somehow divine their true essence? Or perhaps sniff it out like the monster in Jeepers Creepers?

Quite. However I clearly don't understand feminist analysis...and the implication of 'transphobia' is there too. How shocking!

It's not the same as being called faggot or tranny, or dyke because of your dress.

If you're a lesbian who is assaulted sexually while also being called names like that.. I'd say you were attacked for both reasons.

But many of those names still aren't for 'gender identity' - but for perceived sexuality based on presentation stereotypes.

No, not gender identity but could come under a heading of gender non-conformity (which is originally how it is worded at the top of the survey).

It's the gender stereotypes the person is reacting to, because the woman may be a lesbian, or may not be. I see it as old fashioned homophobia or transphobia or sexism, but I suppose in art colleges that's now considered "gender identity".

As I said, I am in no way apologising for the stupidity of the survey or its confusion of terms. Just that it does seem to be discussing gender presentation and not sex based harassment.

On my day if you turned down a gentleman’s advances chances are you’d get ‘are you a lezza??? Thrown back at you.

On my day if you turned down a gentleman’s advances chances are you’d get ‘are you a lezza??? Thrown back at you.

well to turn down the offer of lovin' from an inebriated overly aggressive stranger must imply you're batting for the other team. Otherwise you'd have been humping him behind the bins already.

Absolutely. The Prince Charming (in his head) was more like Rab C Nesbit in reality.

It is always pertinent to remember that the sole purpose of the gender identity language is to allow for autogyneaphilia to become accepted in public as trans. All the stuff flowing from this is a to reinforce this sexuality as something that must not be judged for what it really is.