Have you ever been harassed on public transport in London because of your gender identity?

[MsTiggywinkletoyou]

I came across this survey, by a "male to female transgender design student", "conducting research into gender non conformity on public transport in London". No date, but the Survey Monkey link is still live. "My research group and I would really appreciate it if you could share your experiences with us." Nowhere does it define "gender identity" or ask what your [i.e. whoever will be filling it in] gender identity is. Pretty piss-poor research design if you ask me, which clearly they didn't. It struck me, however, that I have indeed been harassed on buses and the Tube because I am a woman, and other people correctly identify this. I have also had the temerity to flaunt my gender non-conformity, by getting onto public transport with short hair and no make-up. Four quick questions here: www.surveymonkey.com/r/5VWH5H2

Conducting research into gender non conformity on public transport in London

"gender ID" can be read as millennial speak, but gay people have been harassed for their gender performance since always.

I've been harassed because of my sex. I don't have a gender identity.

I love the smell of mansplaining in the morning.

We all know what "gender non conforming means" this isn't about sexual harassment of women on the tube.

Do we?

If someone gropes me when I'm wearing jeans, DMs and my (male) partner's hoodie is that materially different to groping me when I'm wearing jeans, dms, and a 'ladies' t-shirt?

Of course not.

So yes, they need to define gender id - what do they mean, and once they've defined that, how do people know that it's their gender identity that they were targeted for, rather than their sex, their presumed sexuality, or their gender presentation?

People cannot see my 'gender identity', as they can't see anyone elses as its apparently some internal essence, so this question is daft?

I have been harassed many many times because of my sex though.

Also the only way to 'show' your gender identity is to follow certain stereotypes. And even when 'dressed as a man' for book day a while back I was felt up on public transport as I was obviously female.

I love the smell of mansplaining in the morning.

I really hope that wasn't directed at me as the three children I pushed out of my vagina would disagree with your olfactory assessment.

If someone gropes me when I'm wearing jeans, DMs and my (male) partner's hoodie is that materially different to groping me when I'm wearing jeans, dms, and a 'ladies' t-shirt?

Where does the questionnaire mention groping?

You're discussing sexual harassment.

It's not the same as being called faggot or tranny, or dyke because of your dress.

If you're a lesbian who is assaulted sexually while also being called names like that.. I'd say you were attacked for both reasons.

Also the only way to 'show' your gender identity is to follow certain stereotypes. And even when 'dressed as a man' for book day a while back I was felt up on public transport as I was obviously female.

Yes, sexual assault of women is rife. But if you'd been called a "fucking dyke" for being dressed that wya it would have been about being gender non conforming.

Don't pretend you don't understand this.

This is exactly the sort of crap LM and the like will pick up on and call transphobic.

I've never been hassled on the London tube.

Homophobic and transphobic harassment are real.

You can accept that, comprehend that and STILL be gender critical and not think saying " men have penises" is a transphobic statement.

Men have penises.

Women have vaginas

Men and women also get abused for not fitting gender norms. Gender is a construct but it doesn't stop you getting your ass kicked by a group of young men on the piss.

stillathing - I totally agree. We should be able to recognise that genuine transphobic attacks are a thing without pretending that they're the same thing as the sexual harrassment and sexual assault women get because of our sex.

(BTW, re other posts suggesting one can't be harrassed for gender identity because you can't see inside people's heads, it's not about perceiving "inner trans-ness", it's about some thugs noticing the mismatch between someone's visibly male or female body and their clothing and pitching in to beat the shit out of them for no reason other than that they are evil little thugs looking for an excuse to beat the shit out of people. That is genuine transphobia, and it does happen. It's just that it's aimed at a different demographic, and for different reasons, to sexist attacks on women, and to conflate the two does neither group any favours.)

Turtle stop! That's too much "whataboutery" for this time of the day!

Transphobic attacks are real and abhorrent. But they don't mean we have to ignore, forget or minimise the sexual harrassment women experienced daily.

They are entirely different. One is triggered mismatch in presentation and expectation. The other is triggered by a woman merely existing.

BOTH are down to male violence. So stop shouting at women for wanting to be heard!

^Turtle stop! That's too much "whataboutery" for this time of the day!
Transphobic attacks are real and abhorrent. But they don't mean we have to ignore, forget or minimise the sexual harrassment women experienced daily. They are entirely different. One is triggered mismatch in presentation and expectation. The other is triggered by a woman merely existing.
BOTH are down to male violence. So stop shouting at women for wanting to be hear^

Too much whataboutery?

This thread is the whatabouttery.

This thread is the man on the bus saying "you know men get raped in prison". Sexual harassment of women because they have breasts and arses is not the same as what was in the survey. Why turn it into something else entirely? I am not shutting down women's voices. I have been posting on FWR about gender critical issues for at least 5 years. But gender critical is not the same as "asshole" and threads like this make it hard to differentiate.

The feminist conversation here would have been:

What constitutes as gender non conforming?

Does a middle aged woman not giving a shit count?

Does a woman "manspreading" or playing patriarchy chicken count?

Does a woman in trousers count?

Does it have to be a man in a dress?

This is exactly the sort of crap LM and the like will pick up on and call transphobic.

And? They declare everything transphobic.

The issue I have with using 'gender identity' as a marker..is that the next claim would be that SEE its not people who are female being harassed for bring female, its because they have a female gender identity.

Which in turn, implies women could easily avoid harassment by changing their 'presentation'. Which is utterly false.

And then the 'transwomen are harassed just as much as women, usually even moreso!' appears.

It just a kind of endless cycle.

HIghjacking this to talk about women is whatabouttery. It gives the TRAs who follow this board ammunition.

Also this..well, this is the feminst board. Focusing on women tends to be what we do

The feminist conversation here would have been: I suspect that is an example of the turn of phrase that makes posters wonder about the sex of the writer...

What constitutes as gender non conforming? Don't have to wonder about that as gender is a social construct and I don't acknowldge it at all!

Does a middle aged woman not giving a shit count? Any age, any sex can not care about any issue. Posters here do..

Does a woman "manspreading" or playing patriarchy chicken count? Yep. And there are a lot of threads discussing the relative merits of that!

Does a woman in trousers count? I want to say yes, as presumably the trousers don't eradicate years of schooling. But I would refer you to Eddie Izzard when he was sensible, they aren't men's trousers...

Does it have to be a man in a dress? Does what have to? I lost your train of thought...

Basically I have no idea what your general point is, other than to tell women they aren't beng nice... whch never goes down well here!

But gender critical is not the same as "asshole" and threads like this make it hard to differentiate. And you say you aren't shutting down women's voices.

Asshole may I ask, are you American? That might explain a different perspective, knowing could help the flow of conversation!

And? They declare everything transphobic

Yes, but a broken clock is right twice day (and would be in this case)

I suspect that is an example of the turn of phrase that makes posters wonder about the sex of the writer...

Oh, I'm sorry Samphire. Exactly how should a woman write that? Please tell me, it's highly interesting in a thread about non-conformity.

Basically I have no idea what your general point is, other than to tell women they aren't beng nice... whch never goes down well here!

I suspect that you lost my train of thought because you struggle with reading more than a few lines. Which is probably why you didn't read, or didn't understand the shared link. I am not telling anyone to be nice. I am telling people to not mock someone who is asking for stories of harassment.

If I were a TRA and I wanted to accuse MN of transphobia I would write this thread and If I then wanted to further show that MN doesn't understand feminist analysis and I would write Vixx and Sapmhire's posts.

I'm sorry how would it help the flow of conversation? Do you normally pick up posters on their country of origin? Do you believe all Americans have the same perspective on things? Please do add xenophobia to transphobia. Maybe you can make a joke about the disabled and ensure we end up in The Guardian tomorrow.

I've been in the UK my whole adult life and had my children here. let me know how long I can be here before I'm allowed an opinion.

The study didn’t ask of your gender identity was the same as your sex at birth. It sounds just like art school nonsense to me.

The study didn’t ask of your gender identity was the same as your sex at birth. It sounds just like art school nonsense to me.

It's a crap survey and probably self selecting and I suppose then the student can write "100% of the four people who responded said they'd suffer harassment". It will look well shiny on the poster.

But they are a graphic design student. I suspect it will be an art piece with much depth 🙄

This thread is the whatabouttery.

No, this thread is making the blindingly obvious point that nobody has been harassed on public transport in London due to their "gender identity" because, even in the opinion of the Gender Faithful, "gender identity" is invisible.

These twits can't even get their own terminology right.

Women are harassed on public transport in London by dint of their sex, however they choose to dress or present. Trans people are harassed on public transport in London because of the way they present - in the Gender Faithful catechism, this is called gender expression.

I've no idea how one could actually be harassed because of gender identity.

I was under the impression that according to the genderists, gender identity isn't the same as gender expression so how would the harasser know how one identified and then proceed accordingly - can they read people's minds? Somehow divine their true essence? Or perhaps sniff it out like the monster in Jeepers Creepers?

If I'm neutrois, born female but presenting in an androgynous way and I'm harassed the harasser wouldn't know about my gender identity unless I told them and the harassment would be for not being "obviously" male or female/not performing femininity correctly rather than my being neutrois.

Women are harassed because of their sex and those who are GNC are harassed because they're seen to be not "playing the game" correctly as set down by the rules of patriarchy - gender identity doesn't come into it as far as I can see.