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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS to review its transgender policies

34 replies

magicmole · 04/03/2019 16:01

Didn't see if this had already been posted.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/04/nhs-review-transgender-policies/

The Health Minister, Matt Hancock: "This is a very, very difficult question and the current rules of the NHS are that people are treated as they present," he said. "So if somebody is a woman and has gone through the legal changes to be a woman then they are treated as a woman".

Isn't he conflating several different groups of people there? Anyone who rocks up and self-IDs is not the same as someone who has 'gone through the legal changes'. Plus, does he mean by that people with a GRC (fewer than 5000 people)? I'm not sure what the current guidance is but know someone on here will know.

OP posts:
OvaHere · 04/03/2019 16:05

What does treated as they present mean in terms of health care? Would they ignore symptoms that could potentially be prostate cancer because the person identified as a woman?

This does need rethinking very carefully so people are not put at risk on the basis of identity.

RepealTheGRA · 04/03/2019 16:08

Anybody got him as an MP? Probably be a good chance to write to him?

Point out Labour is haemorrhaging women voters over this issue and nobody men or women likes mixed sex wards.

OldCrone · 04/03/2019 16:11

Isn't he conflating several different groups of people there?

He probably hasn't done his homework, and thinks all transwomen are like Jan Morris. Someone should introduce him to Danielle Muscato and Alex Drummond.

NicoAndTheNiners · 04/03/2019 16:14

He talks about having gone through the legal changes but I thought you weren't allowed to ask to see a GRC? So if someone with a non sex specific medical condition (say appendicitis) rocked up and presented as a woman they'd get treated as a woman and put on a woman's ward?

How would the hospital know if they'd gone through the legal changes or not? Even being in possession of a penis isn't evidence one way or another as you can get the certificate without the surgery.

So someone who is biologically and legally a man could be on a woman's ward if they feel like it.

But of course the nhs has a commitment to single sex wards. Dignity and privacy pledge, etc.

MillytantForceit · 04/03/2019 16:15

He's the Secretary of State for Health. Any taxpayer has the right to contact his office and seek information.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 04/03/2019 16:18

It's not as if it's impossible to both respect someone's choice of personal identity and not expect women to share wards with males. When accessibility legislation was brought in, all new builds were expected to show in planning how this would be catered for, and time scales and funding was set up to allow for alterations in public buildings. More single rooms. Designated areas. Women do not have to be served up on the altar to make this work, and it's horrifying that this is even in question.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 04/03/2019 16:23

As with prisons, it will boil down to is the issue wanting to be treated as a woman, or is it an insistence on being placed in the presence of biological women whether or not this is in the best interests or wishes of those women.

Widerthanathinblueline · 04/03/2019 16:30

Clearly in a lot of circumstances it is essential to the health of the trans person that the ‘system’ recognises them as the sex they are, whilst in some circumstances also acknowledging the gender they wish. So the nhs needs to have ‘fields’ in its computer system for both.

RepealTheGRA · 04/03/2019 16:34

He sounds confused, we need to find a constituent to educate him.

If any lurker has him as an MP please send him a link to Joan McAlpines excellent twitter thread:

mobile.twitter.com/JoanMcAlpine/status/1101251118611525633

And direct him to:

fairplayforwomen.com/

womansplaceuk.org/

www.transgendertrend.com/

And get info from

www.facebook.com/events/2199432710322104/

There’s thousands if not millions of lurkers here one of you must have him as your MP. Now’s the time to be a shero Smile

Barracker · 04/03/2019 16:44

medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

In this article is everything any lurking constituent might need to apprise Mr Hancock of EXACTLY what is required to accommodate a male person in a female ward.
There are links in this to all the relevant NHS policy documents.

An extract from an NHS policy document:

Trans people should be accommodated according to their presentation: the way they dress, and the name and pronouns that they currently use.

• This may not always accord with the physical sex appearance of the chest or genitalia;

• It does not depend upon their having a gender recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change

NHS to review its transgender policies
truthisarevolutionaryact · 04/03/2019 16:45

This is probably the case to mention to him:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/10/nhs-trans-row-men-get-access-womens-wards-identify-female/

Ask him why the frightened elderly women patients' needs were ignored. Ask him if this is now what will happen in all wards?

It was discussed on Loose Women with a subsequent row about panelists that said they didn't want to share wards with men - no matter how they transition - being accused of transphobia. Depressingly the elderly women victims of the transwoman's sexually aggressive behaviour were completely ignored by the terminally woke (Stacey Solomon et al).

HumberElla · 04/03/2019 16:50

And what about data collection? Or specific treatments that effect male and female bodies differently? So if a male bodied individual, born male, with male physiology is now treated as woman for all purposes if they choose to present that way when they go to A&E on a Tuesday afternoon at teatime, how are health or treatments be decided and outcomes recorded?

This 'treated as a woman' (or man?) rule based on presentation is going to have some pretty awful implications if we can't know what medication/dose/strength/period of treatment to apply for those with different sexed bodies, or collect basic data on whether treatments are successful or not dependent on sex.

HumberElla · 04/03/2019 16:52

how are health or treatments be decided and outcomes recorded?

What?!

I meant how are treatments to be decided and health outcomes recorded.

Barracker · 04/03/2019 17:20

He probably hasn't done his homework, and thinks all transwomen are like Jan Morris.

He knows.
The policy was brought to his attention publicly in October last year.

It was the Department of Health themselves that issued a directive overriding the NHS team, and instructing them to segregate wards by gender and not sex - but to tell the public it was by sex.
The NHS and the DOH understood the difference between sex and gender clearly enough to have a policy that explicitly stated to segregate wards by gender but tell the public it was by sex. That was in 2010.

The policy directing NHS staff to accommodate according to self ID was written in 2009.

That's before the Equality Act even existed, before the concept of 'proposing to undergo' etc was a thing.
At that point only a GRC granted you the legal fiction.
And yet in 2009 the NHS were preempting self ID already, using language that would appear in the future EA2010.

twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1053262276403388416?s=19

RepealTheGRA · 04/03/2019 17:27

OMFG barracker

In that case he needs to throw the Blair administration under the bus and explain to the public that the Tories care deeply about women’s right and the dignity of all people. Even if he doesn’t actually give a shit, it’s a vote winner!

MhairiV · 04/03/2019 17:36

I don't understand at all how this can work in any practical sense. Male and female bodies are so different in so many ways, and I'm no doctor but there must be many conditions which exist only in one or the other, or exist in both but present differently, or need different treatment. How on earth can doctors be expected to do their jobs effectively? How will research work?

Also, people don't get much more vulnerable than when they're in hospital. The thought of forcing elderly women to deal with this makes me so angry. It also makes me want to cry actually.

Barracker · 04/03/2019 17:40

These policies were instigated by Andrew Lansley, Health Secretary in 2010.
He was Tory.

He was one of the very few Tories who voted FOR the GRA in 2004. Most tories voted against.
He absolutely understood what he was doing.

happydappy2 · 04/03/2019 17:46

in light of the Karen White case in a womans prison, the fact that the public are much more aware now about the possibility of a man abusing a system of self identity of gender, means the hospital policy has to be re looked at. Trans prisons, trans hospital accommodation-it has to be provided. I respect that transwomen don’t wish to be on a ward with men, but women have the right not to share a ward with people who aren’t women.

RepealTheGRA · 04/03/2019 18:07

Thanks Barracker your posts are always very informative.

I thought Labour were still in, in 2009 and they introduced the EA in 2010?

Where is Andrew Lansley now?

Politics was never my strong point but I do now know a hell of a lot more than I did three years ago when I was first alerted to this Angry

Barracker · 04/03/2019 22:27

Tories got in May 2010. The whole 'we've abolished mixed sex wards' was Tory policy in 2010.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/hospitals-to-face-fines-over-mixed-sex-wards-2053767.html

Look at the wording in this Independent article. 'sex' all the way through, not one 'gender'.
Looks reassuring, doesn't it?

But I know for a fact that the NHS team at the time discussed with Lansley that the policy was based upon gender, NOT sex. The NHS team wanted to call it 'abolishing mixed GENDER wards' to be truthful to the public.

Lansley vetoed this. He was categorical. Insisted that it be called 'sex' whilst acknowledging within the meetings that wards were not segregated by sex but by self ID gender.
This is minuted in the meetings and a senior member of the NHS team was very clear that this happened.

“The policy commitment relates to gender, not sex, but to ensure a better public understanding it is referred to as Mixed Sex Accomodation (MSA)"

Verbatim from the NHS documents in 2010.

NHS to review its transgender policies
R0wantrees · 04/03/2019 23:10

He probably hasn't done his homework, and thinks all transwomen are like Jan Morris. Someone should introduce him to Danielle Muscato and Alex Drummond.

Or listen to Tara Hewitt's training session for health care proffessionals.
'trans people and cancer'

Tara Hewitt has been very influential in changing NHS and Social Care policies:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3385533-Prominant-campaigning-role-of-Tara-Hewitt-NHS-TELI-Social-work-universities-etc

RepealTheGRA · 04/03/2019 23:21

That is fucking appalling barracker I’ve known for a long time that this has been going on for much longer than I’ve realised and some days I wish I was still blissfully unaware but I’m really shocked at that! Angry

Can I call Langsley a cunt? Fuck it I’m going to, I think I’m six weeks from a deletion. CUNT.

and yes I know it’s the Feminist board but I’m really fucking angry

R0wantrees · 04/03/2019 23:28

Lansley vetoed this. He was categorical. Insisted that it be called 'sex' whilst acknowledging within the meetings that wards were not segregated by sex but by self ID gender.
This is minuted in the meetings and a senior member of the NHS team was very clear that this happened.

Providing single 'sex' accomodation in NHS is a performance indicator.

In the UK it is well-recognised how important this is.

Guardian 2017
'Mixed-sex wards endanger and humiliate women'
by Catherine Bennett
'Even as gender-neutral spaces grow, hospitals show that in some areas men and women are best kept apart'
(extract)
The unacceptability of mixed-sex wards has been a cherished theme for every opposition since Tony Blair alighted, in 1996, on what is still, universally, agreed to be a valid cause of public upset.

Mixed wards, he said “cause indignity, upset people”. Subsequent studies, including a 2008 examination of nurse and patient perspectives, confirmed he had not exaggerated. There were patients, it confirmed, of both sexes and of varied ages, who “experienced a lack of privacy, worried about bodily exposure and felt uncomfortable”. Nurses entirely sympathised. “Mixed-sex accommodation,” it concluded, “is an unacceptable solution to bed shortages.”

Moreover, investigations showed, objections go far beyond the allegedly trivial ones, according to more disinhibited patients, of commodes, Carry On! gowns, proximity to men who might resemble, to pick one or two names at random, the Pimlico Plumber and twat-detector Charlie Mullins or the BBC star and famed beauty connoisseur, John Inverdale.

Patients and their relatives attested to intrusion, exhibitionism and leering from nearby beds, even with staff around. In 2009, Channel 4 discovered that almost two-thirds of sexual assaults by patients in hospitals (21 out of 33 in 2007/8), occurred in mixed-sex wards. Variations on Blair’s question to an evasive John Major – “Is it beyond the collective wit of the government and the health administrators to deal with that problem?” – was a reliable line in opposition outrage until Jeremy Hunt declared in 2014 that this indignity was “nearly”, or “virtually”, history." (continues)

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/30/mixed-sexed-wards-endanger-and-humiliate-women

R0wantrees · 04/03/2019 23:31

These policies were instigated by Andrew Lansley, Health Secretary in 2010.
He was Tory.

He was one of the very few Tories who voted FOR the GRA in 2004. Most tories voted against.*
He absolutely understood what he was doing.

Andrew Landsley has some very serious questions to answer.
So too successive health ministers.

RepealTheGRA · 04/03/2019 23:31

I’ve googled Lansley now, he’s just an all round slimy POS.