The Times reports on a new jail in a jail for trans women

[truthisarevolutionaryact]

Andrew Gilligan reporting:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/europes-first-jail-in-a-jail-for-trans-women-vg7r57qfh?shareToken=50bf9da1df3d91e8bce68b1c608561e5

Maybe those most vulnerable of women - prisoners - are about to be finally protected from male born sex offenders.

The decision now about what to do with trans prisons seems to be taking a very long time. Karen White offended in a women's prison in September and October 2017.

From the article above "It said wider policy on trans prisoners was still in development and “no final decisions have been made”.

Whereas the decision before (to transfer all men with a GRC irrespective of offending history to women's prisons plus some of those who self-ID as women) seems to have been taken extraordinarily quickly and implemented quickly.

Good point Popchyck . I suppose the time delay suggests that this government won't do anything to protect women until they have been abused and the criticism / compensation claims start coming in.

It's why #nodebate was so successful and why there are still countless attempts to shut whistleblowing women up.

The possibility of salami tactics concerns me. Putting them into a self contained unit on the grounds of accepting their identity is a short step from 'and this activity can be inclusive' and 'this area should be inclusive'. It would be so easy to gradually stretch those boundaries from this starting point of being on site, especially after a few years of it being the norm for males identifying as women to be housed within the women's estate.

Completely agree Knicknack

The Review on the Care and Management of Transgender Offenders, published by the Ministry of Justice in November 2016 is interesting.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/566829/transgender-review-findings-print.PDF

It boldly asserts:

"Allowing transgender offenders to experience the system in the gender in which they identify will, in the great majority of cases, represent the most humane and safest way to act. We believe it will also assist successful rehabilitation".

Also...

"At the time of the review there was very little data available on the number of transgender, non-binary or intersex people entering prison or commencing court orders. Estimates the review heard - of tens rather than hundreds of transgender prisoners - were based on observation rather than any audit or collection from information recorded on case management systems, and therefore they were not sufficiently reliable to be given any real weight".

A couple of years later and a HMIP survey finds that, rather than the guess of tens of transgender inmates that the MoJ based their policy on, there are actually over 1400 inmates who identify as transgender across the prison population in England and Wales.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6712985/One-prisoner-50-identifies-opposite-sex.html

"Allowing transgender offenders to experience the system in the gender in which they identify will, in the great majority of cases, represent the most humane and safest way to act. We believe it will also assist successful rehabilitation".

Gah I want to break things every time I read that piece of innocent misogyny.

What about allowing women to 'experience the system' without 'experiencing' sexual harassment, having to shower and undress in the presence of men without choice or option to escape, and being confined with serious sexual offenders? Might that not be the safest, most humane way to act for them? And what do you believe about the effect of being a victim of fear, intimidation, humiliation, sexual harassment and living with the threat of assault 24/7 on women's successful rehabilitation? Or mental health?

If you're born with a vagina are you that much of an inferior, less human being that you don't deserve ANY consideration at all, never mind equal consideration?

rather than the guess of tens of transgender inmates that the MoJ based their policy on, there are actually over 1400 inmates who identify as transgender

Is it that the guess of tens was transsexuals with a GRC (sounds like that's about right, 20?) which mushroomed enormously because of effective self-Id and the expansion of the 'trans umbrella'?

The Review on the Care and Management of Transgender Offenders 2016

This is a good example of the government outsourcing policies to Pro-trans Lobby Groups. Not only did they write the policy but Gendered Intelligence became part of the decision-making process about where to place transgender prisoners like Karen White.

The possibility of salami tactics concerns me. Putting them into a self contained unit on the grounds of accepting their identity is a short step from 'and this activity can be inclusive' and 'this area should be inclusive'. It would be so easy to gradually stretch those boundaries from this starting point of being on site, especially after a few years of it being the norm for males identifying as women to be housed within the women's estate.

I agree. It's a softly softly approach.

Did anyone, anywhere, utter the question "but what about the women?"?

Even though I am the most cynical person I know, it is still mind blowing to me that this question always seems to be missing. Across multiple organisations, some of whom are paid to do so.

it is still mind blowing to me that this question always seems to be missing. Across multiple organisations, some of whom are paid to do so.

Yes it is as though swathes of people have had part of their brain removed or are under hypnosis. How do so many shitty, misogynistic, safeguard-removing decisions get signed off? It is insane.

Pam wrote:

This is a good example of the government outsourcing policies to Pro-trans Lobby Groups. Not only did they write the policy but Gendered Intelligence became part of the decision-making process about where to place transgender prisoners like Karen White.

What the fucking fresh hell?
Lobby groups for trans rights are invited to make decisions about safety of women prisoners?
.....WHAT?
Do the journalists realise this?
Under what authority have GIRES been invited to do that?
Is this normal practice for prison decisions in other areas?
Was it an open application process?
What women’s groups were asked to apply?
What expertise entitles GIRES to do this role?
What legal accountability is there for decisions they have made?

This is really worrying.

Well, it's a start.
Shame women had to get sexually assaulted for them to listen.

But it is a step in the right direction.

Nope.

It should be in a men's prison because these offenders are men.

I think having it in a women's prison is a slippery slope. I don't buy it's simply because this prison had capacity.

The three offenders have Gender Recognition Certificates.
The GRC legislation is likely responsible for the decision to place these particular male transpeople in a unit on female prison estate.
It granted them legal protections.

It may well be a decision informed by threat of legals actions.

As other male transpeople without GRCs had also been placed in the female estate with vulnerable women prisoners, have they all now been accomodated in the male estate?

This is a good example of the government outsourcing policies to Pro-trans Lobby Groups. Not only did they write the policy but Gendered Intelligence became part of the decision-making process about where to place transgender prisoners like Karen White

Schools policies, prison policies, NHS policies, Civil Service policies, HR, journalism, police, sports policies etc have all been written/influenced by single interest lobby groups and individuals. Rarely have the individuals involved any previous background or professional qualification in the area beyond trans-rights activism.

See GIRES, Mermaids, Action For Trans Health, press for Change, Stonewall, Agender, Scottish Trans Alliance etc

It was too good to be true - women's needs centred? No chance

‘High-risk’ transgender inmates at Downview mix with women
Prisoners said to include sex offenders who are held in a new trans unit join biological women for some activities

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/high-risk-transgender-inmates-at-downview-mix-with-women-zt33zb2ks

Fairplay for women have a good thread on this:
twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1107196062832517120

Share token: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/high-risk-transgender-inmates-at-downview-mix-with-women-zt33zb2ks?shareToken=2ee2638aef9fa60d776ddea726559a4e

Archived: archive.fo/O7CJ5

Thanks for the share.

But it'll never happen.... they said.

As usual the reader comments mirror the thoughts of the majority:

'This one sentence sums up the problem with self-identification: ‘the prospect of moving to the relatively liberal environment of a women’s prison could be a motive for insincere transition by dangerous inmates kept in high-security in the male estate’.

"At least one trans prisoner has proved disruptive, staging a rooftop protest at Downview last weekend, the ministry confirmed".

And they've been there a week?

FFS. This never ends.

This is just ridiculous, the gov't are complicit in putting female inmates at huge risk, whilst locked up. Even though they are well aware of the risks...

Let's not forget Gordon Pike of the Scottish Prison Service and his malign influence

An official who agreed a policy allowing male-bodied sex offenders into women’s prisons was a sex offender who hoarded 22,000 indecent pictures of children.

Gordon Pike, a senior official of the Scottish Prison Service, was one of those responsible for its “gender identity and gender reassignment policy”, documents seen by The Sunday Times show. The policy is significantly more liberal than England’s, stating that transgender prisoners must normally be housed according to the “social gender” with which they self-identify, “whether or not” they have legally changed it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sex-offender-gordon-pike-helped-set-prison-trans-rules-q8n3lnksv

This all goes back to allowing men to become women legally.

Now the MoJ is in a bind because they are now discriminating against these "women" because of their trans status.

I'm guessing that every one of these men is suing the MoJ right now and will be demanding that the discrimination stops.

But the women's prison system in this country is not set up to cater for high-risk offenders, many of whom are sex offenders. Clearly. Because women typically do not commit these offences.

But I'm hoping that somebody at the MoJ is seeing the problems that have occurred so far and wondering how the proposed introduction of self-ID is going to work.

Because there will be thousands of male inmates who decide to identify as female if it gets them a move to a women's prison. The majority of sex offenders would chose to do that; why wouldn't they? It is cushier and you get access to women. We'll see notorious high-risk criminals choose to move to the women's estate.

And under self-Id, it is based on the feeling in your head, so there is no way to challenge someone who identifies as a woman.

If the MoJ is having all these headaches with men who have a GRC right now, then how much worse will it get when you can get a GRC at the click of a button?

Maria Miller's Transgender Equality report gave very strong recommendations that women's prisons should accept men that claim to be women, based entirely on their self-declared gender identify.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/390.pdf#page=65

"While the safety and welfare of all offenders is paramount, caring for and managing trans offenders appropriately is crucial. There is a clear risk of harm (including violence, sexual assault, self-harming and suicide) where trans prisoners are not located in a prison or other setting appropriate to their acquired / affirmed gender".

The Ministry of Justice then put these "Women and Equalities" recommendations into practice.

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7420/CBP-7420.pdf

At no point were women consulted.

There is nothing I can type here that would both adequately represent my feelings about this and not get me deleted.