Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Munroe Bergdorf: all women are a fantasy and transwomen are living their own fantasy

69 replies

QuietContraryMary · 27/02/2019 21:42

Some sexist bilge for you here

www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/article/munroe-bergdorf-transactivism-interview

"Ed Razak, the marketing executive at Victoria Secret, said he would not cast transwomen in the annual show because they can’t sell a fantasy. All women are a fantasy, and transwomen are living their own fantasy. It’s great to see female owned businesses supporting transpeople and actually putting what they preach into practise."

I can see after tens of thousands of pounds of plastic surgery why Munroe might identify as a fantasy, but I'm not clear how Munroe thinks that applies more generally.

Bonus ageism

"Twitter is the worst, people can be so vile, whereas there are less comments on Instagram. It’s mainly transphobic old men or women who think trans people are hindering the feminist cause when in reality it’s the complete opposite. "

Ah yes the feminist cause of being a lingerie model. Bra selling rather than bra burning.

Munroe is fronting an ad campaign www.bluebella.com/blogs/news/loveyourself-this-valentines for a lingerie company. It leads with Munroe and then features nine non-trans-woman, such as actually stunning and brave Stefanie Reid, amputee Paralympic medallist. Obviously Munroe gets top billing though because of her inspiring story of having shitloads of plastic surgery just because she can.

OP posts:
Knicknackpaddyflak · 28/02/2019 08:16

Yeah I agree, to the TRA lobby women are nothing more than a fantasy. theyve just appropriated the word of half the population having an actual reality experience and told us to shut up about it.

If we're going to riot, can we do it MN style please, with biscuits and Paddington glares?

R0wantrees · 28/02/2019 08:16

Munroe Bergdorf isn't just promoting male fantasy lingerie.

Munroe Bergdorf is being granted considerable platform, leading the London Women's March and also unquestioningly promoting an 11 year old boy, Desmond Napoles (AKA Desmond is Amazing) involvement in the adult Queer/Drag scene.

Many have raised serious Safeguarding & Child Protection concerns about children such as Desmond.
Munroe Bergdof does not understand Safeguarding (like many prominant transactivists incuding Aimee Challenor, Stephen Whittle, Susie Green, Jane Fae, James Morton etc) but more serious is that MB silences and smears as 'terfs' those women who do.

Recent important thread,
OP happydappy2 wrote,
"Julia Long asking Munro Bergdorf about child exploitation
Julia Long was asked to leave the venue, after asking MB if it was normal that an 11yr old child dancing in front of adults, has money thrown at them by grown men. This was at Transmission & was deemed an offensive question....video footage on twitter of the incident.....worth a watch, sorry I can’t link to it but hope someone else can."

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd4UCemsC6s&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

LangCleg comment,

"How did the scandal of TV entertainers grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of Catholic priests grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of on-street gangs grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

Because if you create a sacred caste of any group and silence anyone asking questions about individuals on behalf of the sacred caste, abusers will see, infiltrate, and groom and exploit children. That''s how.

It's just tangential to me that the current group above criticism is extremist transactivism. I couldn't give a shit which group is ignoring the safeguarding of children - TV entertainers, Catholic priests, transactivists - it's all the same to me.

I will not be told I cannot point out safeguarding failures when I see them. "

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3512177-Julia-Long-asking-Munro-Bergdorf-about-child-exploitation

Object! article detailing Safeguarding issues by HANNAH HARRISON
concludes:
"The fabrication of the 'transgender' child (or the child ‘Drag Queen’) is similar to the creation of the child 'sex worker'. These misleading labels are placed on ordinary children in order to disguise and excuse the exploitation of these children in the fulfillment of an adult agenda – in both cases, to cater to the sexual interests of adult men.

The 'trans rights' movement reframes the removal of children's safeguarding as granting children 'freedom of expression'. This is similar to paedophiles advocating for the 'sexual rights of children'. In both cases, the proponents of these movements are actually interested in promoting men's 'sexual rights'."

www.objectnow.org/news/2019/1/15/trans-kids-paedophilia-in-drag?

Munroe Bergdorf: all women are a fantasy and transwomen are living their own fantasy
LizzieSiddal · 28/02/2019 08:27

More delusion from MB. They will keep it coming.

Bowlofbabelfish · 28/02/2019 09:09

Starter for ten: what do we call people who force unwilling participants to participate in their sexual fetishes?

Ereshkigal · 28/02/2019 09:14

Yeah I agree, to the TRA lobby women are nothing more than a fantasy. theyve just appropriated the word of half the population having an actual reality experience and told us to shut up about it.

This. Sums it up perfectly. They have not the remotest notion what it's like to be a woman, in a female body.

SciFiScream · 28/02/2019 09:19

I looked at the photos. MB's expression never changes. Face looks quite frozen.
Then no full shots of the pants for MB. The other models have full shots of the pants area. MBs are always hidden.

Datun · 28/02/2019 09:20

All women are a fantasy

Shon Faye recommends youngsters to 'suck dick, get tits early'.

Jane Fae promotes extreme pornography that shows injury of breasts, vaginas and anuses.

Paris Lee's asserts that being objectified is hot and being treated like a piece of meat is sexy.

Yes, yes we know what you think of women. It's really nothing new. Believe me, you are neither novel nor interesting.

Countered, of course with the equally predictable if you don't like it suck my dick or suck my formaldehyde pickled balls repostes.

Honestly. I'm put in mind of the fourth form common room.

Thank goodness more and more people are seeing it.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 28/02/2019 09:30

Starter for ten: what do we call people who force unwilling participants to participate in their sexual fetishes?

this

I'm quite aware that males who like to conform to the gender stereotypes typically associated with women are living out a fantasy

leave me out of it please

TowelNumber42 · 28/02/2019 09:33

That article! If we look at the media, transmen seem to be less validated than transwomen

Validated. FFS. The purpose of the media is not to validate people. If Jimmy Saville had been validated less and challenged a hell of a lot more by the media then many children might never have been sexually assaulted by him.

If I could change one thing it would be to kill the idea that people have the right to be not offended, to be validated, to have challenging ideas excluded from debate in the name of "safe spaces" (especially in politics and education).

Knicknackpaddyflak · 28/02/2019 09:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TheABC · 28/02/2019 09:40

Oh, MB. I am not a fantasy. But I am willing to be your nightmare if that is what it takes to challenge your crap.

R0wantrees · 28/02/2019 09:56

Shon Faye recommends youngsters to 'suck dick, get tits early'.

Jane Fae promotes extreme pornography that shows injury of breasts, vaginas and anuses.

Paris Lee's asserts that being objectified is hot and being treated like a piece of meat is

Yet all three with Munroe Bergdorf are regularly afforded unquestioning platforms by BBC, Channel 4, Independent, Guardian and many prominant organisations.

This week, The Independent published and enabled Jane Fae's false allegations about women including those who post here:

'The far right’s appeal to women is getting stronger, and their tactics are working
Fascist groups all over Europe are making hay with a narrative that is insular, tribal, yet reassuring, with key messages like ‘fear of the other’ and using violence against women as a propaganda tool'
(extract)

Add “concern”. One UK feminist splinter has made it their mission to warn of the trans menace. On the BBC just a fortnight ago, a leading member of this group explained how the biggest threat facing women today was “the transgender ideology”.

So I’m biased. Not entirely convinced that upholding the rights of around 10-15,000 trans women in the UK (their focus) will bring on the gender apocalypse: whereas a toxic mix of cuts, austerity and unsympathetic government just might.

A recent schism within this group shows how wrong this can go. They recruited “Mumsnetters”, scarcely radical feminists. Surprise! Many of these were happy to sup with the far-right Heritage Foundation. Cue rapid backpedalling by people relying on the old maxim: “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”.

But then across a swathe of issues, from trans rights, to sex work to surrogacy, many of these already align closely to the right. So perhaps more apt: “Lie with dogs: get fleas!” (continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518111-mumsnetdescribed-as-a-recruiting-ground-for-the-far-right-appealing-to-women

Many of us recognise propaganda techniques and how they are used by transactivists, sadly it seems increasing numbers of editors in media missed the important English Language lessons

Basic intro 'How Stuff Works':
"Propaganda Techniques

Propagandists use a variety of techniques to communicate messages and influence others.

A commonly used technique is name-calling, which takes its cue from playground behavior. Often, this technique is utilized to divert attention when someone is trying to avoid answering a question or providing hard facts. Name-callers frequently use labels like terrorist, traitor or hypocrite. They also utilize negatively charged words to describe ideas or beliefs, including radical, stingy and cowardly

The bandwagon technique encourages the viewer or listener to join the crowd by aligning with the most popular, successful side of an issue. This type of persuasion, often used in religious and political propaganda, plays to the human desire to be on the winning team.

Glittering generalities are very common in political propaganda. Glittering generalities combine words that have positive connotations with a concept that is particularly beloved. Few people are willing to denounce any idea that purports to defend democracy or preserve freedom. The idea is that by using these terms in tandem, people will accept them as they are and avoid looking for supporting evidence. Other words used commonly in this technique include liberty, dream and family.

Card stacking is the presentation of only the details, statistics and other information that impacts public opinion positively. In other words, the bad stuff is left out entirely. Experts maintain that although the information that's presented is usually true, this type of propaganda technique presents a lopsided and unrealistic viewpoint that is dangerously deceptive. Card stacking is often used in political campaign advertisements.

The plain folks technique is designed to get ordinary citizens to identify with a political candidate or other figure that they otherwise may have nothing in common with. For example, many politicians come from prestigious backgrounds and sport hefty bank accounts. However, they often present themselves as humble people with ordinary lives by doing "ordinary Joe" activities in public, like hunting, fishing or kissing babies.

Propaganda based on fear is designed to scare people into choosing sides. Often, worst-case scenarios are presented of horrible things to come if a particular action isn't taken. Special interest groups use this technique to encourage people to avoid behaviors such as smoking, drinking alcohol and driving recklessly.

The transfer technique is more subliminal (operating on a subconscious rather than conscious level) than the other techniques we've discussed. Using this method, a group or person attempts to align themselves with a beloved symbol in an effort to transfer the status of the symbol to the cause they represent. Some people see parallels between propaganda and subliminal messaging, in which images or words are presented too quickly or abstractly for people to consciously recognize and process them. This method is really more common in advertising than in propaganda, although some political ads utilize subliminal messaging.

Many other propaganda methods exist, but they subsist on the same basic principles as the ones listed above: Manipulate the message to portray an issue or person in the most favorable light possible, and when necessary, make the opposing side look shabby in comparison."
source:
people.howstuffworks.com/propaganda1.htm

R0wantrees · 28/02/2019 10:11

As a wider point, if wondering why so many from such different backgrounds to privately educated privileged male politicians such as Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg etc are so persuaded by their rhetoric, the answer is in that those educated in rhetorical devices gain the power to use them and those who are not aware of propaganda techniques are disempowered to recognise how they are being persuaded.

Consider the education background of prominant male transactivists... quite a predominance of all boys private education, degrees in English, law etc Those who are taught to debate effectively can persuade effectively.

Its all about power and control.

terryleather · 28/02/2019 11:03

Men either want to fuck us, kill us or be us

I don't know who originally said it, but I remember reading this charming aphorism years ago - it seems rather pertinent now...

GrumpyGran8 · 28/02/2019 13:45

There's probably a market for attractive underwear that fits male-born pelvises better than female-born-shaped pelvises...
There's always been a market for male versions of female intimate garments. But you only ever saw them being modelled in specialist magazines because they were completely the wrong sizes for women. So did the lingerie company have to make MB's scanties specially for her?

quixote9 · 28/02/2019 19:31

"All women are femininity is a fantasy, and transwomen are living their own fantasy"

There you go, Ed. Fixed it for you.

FermatsTheorem · 28/02/2019 20:09

Sigh!

No, I am not a fantasy. Neither my own fantasy nor some pervy blokes (admittedly, ceasing to be pervy blokes' fantasy is one of the perks of the menopausal cloak of invisibility).

What I am is a human being. Who would like the male half of the human race to recognise that she's a human being. You know, as in a person in my own right. With full human rights and all that guff.

Courday · 28/02/2019 20:51

They are indeed living in a fantasy. There are hashtags on twitter confirming just how far from reality they are.

Actoncurrerellis · 01/03/2019 00:14

Thing is, Munroe is not entirely wedded to the feminist fantasy. Here is Munroe quoted in last week’s Guardian style magazine:
“At the start of my transition, my idea of beauty was very performative. The more feminine I looked, the more I felt validated in my gender identity. As I’ve grown, navigating my sexuality, I’ve become more comfortable embracing the masculine elements of my identity. I don’t have to wear a dress and makeup all the time, I’m often a tomboy, but it’s taken time for me to be comfortable with who I am and how I look.”

So Munroe is a biological male who is increasingly comfortable with a masculine identity - perhaps we need a new word to describe the Munroes of this world. It would be based on woman, obviously, but should recognise that Munroe is not feminine full-time. It could be woma, wom, oman, something along those lines?

ErrolTheDragon · 01/03/2019 00:17

I’m often a tomboy

A tomboy? At 31?ConfusedHmm

Datun · 01/03/2019 00:20

A person born male, presenting as female who is presenting as a tomboy? In a lacy bra showing their boobs?

🤣

R0wantrees · 01/03/2019 07:52

I think 'tomboy' for MB may mean 'some days I wear jeans, a hoodie and trainers and don't spend hours on hair and make up and watch football/rugby etc'

The more I read MBs comments the more I hear a young petulant child who was bullied at school and is now demanding they get their own way and is being indulged

Its all and only about MB.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 01/03/2019 07:54

Any female not wearing a dress or make up all the time is a tomboy?

They're mad.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2019 08:12

Glamour Interview with MB:
(extract)
"What changes would you want to make to the conversations we have around gender in our society?

The transmovement has definitely come a long the way in the last few years but I would definitely like to see more stories being shared about transmen and other binary people. If we look at the media, transmen seem to be less validated than transwomen. I would also like to see more support for transkids and the recognition that trans people are not a threat to anybody. If anything, we’re at more risk. People still refuse to see transgender women as women. Just because we cannot give birth or do not have periods doesn’t mean we are any less a woman than someone who can. I’d like to see less of this nonsense in 2019."

here
There are increasing numbers of women (adult human females) who would definitely like to see less of this nonsense.

Again, a male claims womanhood and aligns with women who are infertile / stopped menstruating.

Munroe Bergdoef did this on Channel 4's GenderQuake debate, claiming that as some women had hysterectomies and so no longer had a uterus but were still women so were male transpeople who identified as women and didn't have a uterus.

Its utterly disrespectful to women, many of whom have to have hysterectomies for medical neccessity, women who were born with or develop serious gynaecologocal problems & women who deal with infertility.
Munroe Bergdorf and other male transpeople (Rebecca Root claimed the same on Victoria Derbyshire Show last year) using this argument demonstrate their lack of understanding of what it is to be a woman, their lack or empathy and also utter disrespect.

Its also ridiculously illogical.

Journalists interviewing who simply nod this through without challenge are colluding and being a naive 'flying monkey 'really isn't a good enough excuse.

Wherearemyminions · 01/03/2019 08:27

Its utterly disrespectful to women, many of whom have to have hysterectomies for medical neccessity, women who were born with or develop serious gynaecologocal problems & women who deal with infertility

Thank you. This neatly sums up what I have tried to say to people in the past. No uterus anymore here, or ovaries because I had to nurse my Mother through gynae cancer that killed her, as she did with her own Mother before her who in turn saw her own Mother die from the same. I don't want that for my own daughters.