Rachel McKinnon, weightlifter and Abigail Shrier

[Iggypoppie]

Two giant transwomen discuss how males bodies don't provide a sporting advantage. Hats off to Abigail for keeping calm against the lunacy.
player.vimeo.com/video/319229534

It's total cobblers. And boring.

ribosomes

Reference ranges for total testosterone (you can also measure bio available testosterone and precursors and binding proteins but let’s not go there...) vary between labs, but 0.5-2.5nmol/L is considered normal for women. In the UK some GPs use 0.8-3.0 (which doesn't serve women with pcos well, but my rant about female lab reference ranges for various stuff is a whole other thread.)

10nmol/L for a woman is not normal at all. There may be women who have higher levels than the standard lab reference ranges through conditions which cause hyperandrogenism such as androgen producing tumours. Pcos levels are nowhere near that.

As far as I remember the IAAF set that level not from population ranges (which they should have) but from a small study of track atheletes over a couple of years. The cynic in me says that that sample must have been a tad unusual, and may well (allegedly, etc) have included women doping, or with hyperandrogenism conditions. Ditto the men’s levels - low testosterone for example can happen after a doping cycle.

I’d set the level at 5nmol and that’s being generous. If your GP found you had levels like that they’d be doing a battery of further tests, let’s put it that way.

They should have used population ranges.. it’s a bit like setting the speed limit on the M1 by averaging out everyone the cameras catch... (#cynical...)

Thanks for that. This was my understanding of the situation. And that 10 would be way above the 5% confidence limit for difference between male and female physiologies. That being quite good enough for statistical significant differences for everyone except RM. 🙄

And that 10 would be way above the 5% confidence limit for difference between male and female physiologies.

Never mind the 5% confidence interval, that 10nmol/l is 5 sigma outside the mean of the female population!

Article on what 5 sigma means:
www.physics.org/article-questions.asp?id=103

The dodgy dice analogy is particularly illuminating!

Can anyone else see a startling resemblance between RM and Beaker from the Muppet show? I can't unsee it! 😁

Me me me me me

Is that what the resemblance is ludog

I couldn't get over the size of RM's neck. Hormones obviously don't reduce the sheer size of that. Just like they don't reduce the bone density, lung capacity, upper & lower body strength etc - to that of a woman. Hence why it's unfair.

I’ve seen it argued that the increased skeletal frame, lung capacity, height and weight were actually disadvantaging transwomen because they had to carry all of that around but with reduced testosterone, which gave women, with their lighter frames the advantage.

Argued by a transwoman, of course.

ChickenonaMug

O listened to it buy dodn't watch it as was busy doing something else. Can you say what you mean by...

"The body language of the guests throughout the programme was fascinating, including the hosts response to it. There were definite changes in body language towards the end."

RM looks like both Aimee Challoner and the fake lawyer SH in that video, bizarre!

There are people on Zuby's thread disbelieving that male-bodied people are competing against women irl and disbelieving that anyone claims male bodies have no physical advantage.

Maybe some of you who do Twitter could reply with links to the many many examples. Peak the rap community so they help truly awake the young woke.

Dh believed what Rachel McKinnon said about testosterone levels on the r4 prog

He also thought she was a woman

McKinnon's tweet about this. The same McKinnon who apparently is 'scared of cs women'*

Argghhhh

And indeed, I did see the woman looking at the other two transwomen. I saw the woman looking at the transwomen just as much as the transwomen looked at the woman. But they were all focused on the moderator, mostly.

I wonder about that powerlifter: I lift weights, and could never compete against a male-bodied person - their muscle development, skeletal strength and so on would just make it unfair.

Again, I find myself imagining people without make up & long hair. All three of them - they're all heavily made up.

Fazackerley
"Dh believed what Rachel McKinnon said about testosterone levels on the r4 prog
He also thought she was a woman"

McKinnon loves to steer any debate towards testosterone levels, because they are adept at throwing all manner of false and worthless factoids out there.
When I was around 30, I had extremely low testosterone levels, so low that I had to give up cycle racing whilst the GP prescribed testosterone patches for me. I took them for a couple of months, they didn't raise my levels very much but they did give me palpitations and a fluttery heart.
I still went on to race and win with my levels around the 2.5 to 3 range.
I still had a male body with a big heart and lungs and strong legs.