Feminist praxis or just plain rude?

[EatCashews]

Just came across this article on 'patriarchy chicken':

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2019/02/how-play-patriarchy-chicken-why-i-refuse-move-out-way-men

Can't decide whether the author is making a valid point or being a solipsistic pain in the arse for her fellow commuters.

I also don't understand why men don't constantly bump into each other if they're socialised not to give way. Are these kinds of stereotypes really helpful?

I didn't read all the way to the end. I don't actually recognise what she claims as commonplace. London in the rush hour can be awful but my experience is on the whole people go with the flow apart from a few of both sexes who barge and push.

Generally most people manage to walk past each other although occasionally you get that silly situation people about to collide both move in the same direction, then both move back and could be stuck forever until they sort it out.

I do this, ever since my daughter introduced me to the concept. It is true. Men just don’t see you. I realised I was instinctively moving out of the way before the oncoming males had even recognised my presence.

I don’t do that anymore. I stand my ground and, if necessary stand stock still whilst they walk around me. I am helped in this by being significantly above average height for a woman, white, professional and middle aged. Even so i have been spat at and called a bitch for not giving way to a young man.

I am immensely proud of my slightly built much younger female colleagues who, following conversation at work have also begun testing this out. It’s more dangerous for them, some wear full hijab and abaya, most are much smaller than me. But they’re noticing and they’re doing it.

In answer to the question above, I think men make way for other men but simply do not think of doing so for women. My husband contested this theory until I asked him to observe and check it out for himself. He’s been quiet on the subject since...

There's a great discussion of this in Impro by Keith Johnstone.

It's in the section on status. Lower status people give way to higher status people, and the evaluation of status takes place constantly and unconsciously. I can't even remember if he discusses gender - he talks about age and status though. Apparently older people are higher status in Germany, so when they come to the UK they bump into everyone because in the UK younger people are higher-status. Extrapolating to gender is easy enough.

There should be dozens of books about how we signal and detect status, because once you see it, you notice how it factors into all our interactions. But I've never come across anyone discussing status in those terms, other than pick up artists, and this one section of a book about improv comedy.

Like, Marg, I don't experience is. I do find something (dis)similar with people of both sexes on their phones not looking where they're gone ng

(typos galore)

Watch the kids lining up in the playground at pick up and drop off. In reception the boys barge in the line - not aggressively, they just go where they want - and girls move aside without protest. Staff never notice it. It's subconsciously ingrained.

I stood (sat) my ground at an event where people were sat around tables at chairs. The guy next to me spread further and further int m space until he was hard up against my shoulder when I didn't just move aside. He didn't notice.

I stopped giving way to men after a male jogger (never caught) nearly ended a woman's life by pushing her in front of a bus in London.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-44639208

I think there is an additional factor. I am a very short person. Short people get more trampled on account of being below eye level. This is a nightmare issue for wheelchair users, particularly in crowds. In general men are taller than women.

There is an issue with male entitlement, once you start looking properly the indifference is obscene. Mostly an ingrained lack of consideration and just straight up aggression but I suspect there is also a side order of people (men especially) just not paying any attention to anything below eye level.

It's a thing definitely. Once you see it it's hard to understand how you didn't notice before

Think the height issue also relevant - I'm a shortie. Would be interesting to hear the views of tall women on their perspectives

It's a thing.

I only noticed when out with a more confident friend one time. She just ... walked. At first I thougth she was being really arrogant, then realised she was just not skirting round everyone. She didn't get out of people's way or scurry about apologising.

So I've started doing it, if people are coming towards me two or three abreast on a narrow pavement, I don't go to the side, I smile and keep walking. So far, not one fucker has moved aside, they all bump into me/brush my shoulder. I'm not stopping. ONE DAY THEY WILL MOVE OVER.

just from your title - the men who don't make space for women are plain rude

I am a shorty and definitely notice. I have complained for years that I have to walk three miles to move forward one because of all the side stepping I do.

But, as acts of feminist defiance I have now stopped moving out of the way. I hold my head up and just walk. Well hobble as I walk with a stick. When I went up against an older man who also had a stick it was a case of who gave in first. A ‘sticky impasse’ as my son described it

I decided to test this out a the airport waiting for DD. I stood in the middle of the concourse where everyone was walking out from customs. I was a right pain. Men, women, small children all laden with suitcases had to move around me. I found it very entertaining and rather liberating. No one bumped into me, they all just moved around. Proving nothing in particular.

The secret is to not make eye contact with whoever is coming towards you. Just stare into the distance and keep walking. They always move.

Me and DH are both taller than average. We both get bumped into as we don't move anymore. We realised we always used to, after years of feeling conscious about taking up too much space, so automatically gave way to everyone. People either see it as a challenge, or are just rude, but somehow we are invisible. He's well over 6ft 5 btw so not sure how that factors in with the status and gender theories. I'm just over 6ft, female, and we are also both white. It even happens when I'm with my young children, people just plough through us regardless.

I noticed it when I visited a country where women are relatively low staus. The girl children were kept close to their mothers and prevented from moving too far away. The boy children barged around aggressively like they owned the fucking world. It got my back up so much I started noticing it in my own environment where it's there but less overt. I fill my space now and you can get out of my way.

This is a thing. I’ve only fairly recently noticed that I am always the one who gives way when someone is walking towards me - usually men but not always.
I’m short and middle aged so pretty much invisible - but I’m going to try this.

In reception the boys barge in the line - not aggressively, they just go where they want - and girls move aside without protest.

Both of my DDs routinely trample boys out of the way.

I'd take a bet that women who don't recognise the phenomenon are naturally quite assertive.

I'm small but can walk quite assertively. Part of it's simply being aware, making eye contact if necessary. It's certainly not about being obstructive - actively giving way to people who need more consideration.

I also don't understand why men don't constantly bump into each other if they're socialised not to give way.

They do give way to each other.

I started watching out for this after the coincidences of reading about it on MN a few years ago and being unable to enter a coffee shop in town because a man was standing in the doorway - filling the doorway - talking on his phone. He could see me. I was right in front of him. But he did not move.

I now no longer automatically or routinely give way to men. I haven't been bumped into but I have seen men jump out of the way to move at the last minute when they've realised I'm not going to move. I'd prefer a polite mutual sidestepping and when I notice them start to step aside, I do the the same.

It really brought it home to me in my local and I got sick of men 'moving' me out of the way with a hand on my shoulder or waist. So I decided to 'own the space' and stand my ground. The next time a man did it, I didn't move. He tried again and I didn't move. I don't mind being asked to move or if the guiding hand had come with an 'excuse me' - no, I'd have taken the guiding hand to be an indication of the direction the other person was approaching and wanted to move in. But I object to just being pushed out of the way. Anyway, on this occaision, the man stopped, looked around and said, "excuse me, mate" to the man standing next to me.

No, 'guiding hand' for him. No 'excuse me', for me.

I'm small but can walk quite assertively. Part of it's simply being aware, making eye contact if necessary. It's certainly not about being obstructive - actively giving way to people who need more consideration

I would agree with this. Since I stopped moving out of the way to 'be nice' and started 'owning my space' more assertively, I find it has largely stopped. And yes to not being obstructive.

I must live in an unusual part of the world (East Midlands) because here I've never had this problem. There was a thread like this before and I remember it because the same day I read it I was walking somewhere and a man was coming towards me and stepped into the road to wait for me to pass and apologised (for no reason at all). I remember finding it surprising but I've paid attention since and definitely most of the time the men around here move. Young or old

I do this on my way to work sometimes when the streets are really busy. Started doing it when pregnant and really sore with PGP, so dodging aside for oncoming pedestrians all the time was getting tough anyway. Most do eventually step aside but I have had men about at me for not moving, men collide with me and rebound off me and look really surprised about it. It is enlightening.

*men shout at me for not moving

I've noticed that in America, everyone walks on the right, so face-to-face confrontations don't occur nearly so often. In the UK there are no rules--you might pass a person either way, or if someone decides to be aggressive and keep walking straight, or is oblivious, or is a feminist proving a point(!!) then the other person has to step aside. I wonder if American women complain about men expecting them to give way.

I'm 5'3. People appear not to notice me all the time. Cut in front in queues. Barge me out of the way at gigs etc. I hate it.
DP is tall and crowds magically part for him. So he's often further ahead while I'm battling my way through crowds. It's very noticeable. Drives me mad.

I also notice this when waiting for transport and the available seating is a long bench rather than seats.
Women tend to automatically move a bit when people approach to sit, while men don't.
They also tend not to ask women, although some women also don't ask.
One time a young men just stood there and expected both women to move. The younger woman near me moved immediately without being asked. I didn't, just to see if he'd ask or day thank you (he didn't). But I got slightly crossed at the younger woman for giving in so easily to what was really rudeness from this man.