Talisa Garcia - transgender actress - expresses concern about wider trans umbrella and militant tactics

[Needmoresleep]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6735491/Transgender-star-BBCs-hit-drama-Baptiste-reveals-plot-amazing-life-story.html

'I think the whole transgender thing has gone too crazy for me,' she admits. 'I find the umbrella of "transgender' troubling. I mean I can't keep up. I don't understand these militant transgender people, who seem to be hating women, yet shouting 'CALL ME A WOMAN'.

'Why? I had a sex change operation. I went to court to get my birth certificate changed, so legally I am a woman. But do I get cross when people refuse to see me as a 'real' woman? No. That is their right. We have freedom of thought and freedom of speech in this country.

'Everyone is walking around on eggshells not knowing what to say in case we offend someone. It's ridiculous. We should be equal in everything — men, women, black, white, gay, straight — but we need to stop with the labels. I can't keep up with the labels.'

What does she make of those who say they identify as another gender, but don't want the surgery? Or those who come late to the process? 'I don't want to judge, but I can't understand how someone can get to 50 and then say 'I want to be a woman now?'. I think we need to be careful. I could not have lived as a man, literally.

'There are men I've met who have said: 'Oh I put on my wife's clothes and I just KNEW'. No! That is a fetish. Be a transvestite. Do whatever makes you happy, but don't call it transgender.'

Yet this is controversial territory. Does it mean there are degrees of trans? 'Maybe there are different levels. That's for doctors to decide.'

She is pragmatic about her own situation. She would love to have a baby, but without a womb, accepts it cannot happen biologically.

'I'm as close to being a woman as I can possibly get. But I wasn't born a woman, and when I die my body will be that of a man because, realistically, my skeleton is a man's.

'But I'm not bothered what words people use. Call me a woman. Call me a man. Just give me respect. All I want is a bit of respect.'

The question I always want to ask is: do you use women's spaces and services? If the answer is yes, I won't be cheerleading for you

Are you referring to loos, changing rooms ? Where do you think she should go. She looks like a woman and has had full surgery,

Also agree with Lang. Do you use female spaces? Yes - then shut up

She has as much right to speak as you have.

There's a massive difference between a respectful person such as this and bullies who scream their points and need constant validation

There is those of you who are gender critical feminists are going to alienate allies by not taking account of that.

But I'm not bothered what words people use. Call me a woman. Call me a man. Just give me respect. All I want is a bit of respect.

OK.

Then, with real respect, and with your express permission, I will call you a man.
I read you as a man when I see and hear you, despite the writer of the article being convinced that your shoe size is so relevant. I see and hear the same exaggerated performative style, mannerisms and vocal inflection in you that I see in so many other transwomen.

I know you are a man, and I can respect you whilst knowing that.

And I read about your childhood, your conflation of stereotypes with being male or female, your bullying for being a sissy and your underage hormone self treatment. I read about you being sectioned, and your suicide attempt and suicide threats.
I hear you say you accept people calling you a man, yet I see you took advantage of a legal process that compels others to treat you as female whether they want to or not.
I read that you have had sex with men without disclosing you were male to them.

And I think you are now where you are. How easy would it be now for you to accept yourself as the gay male you actually are, who has removed his genitals and his fertility, and who was on that path long before adulthood?

I think almost impossible, now.

The damage is done.

You deserve respect, and mine is offered, but not in the form most transwomen desire.

I respect you as a male human who has been damaged by a society which does not allow camp gay boys to be themselves, and I don't want any other kids to follow your life path, despite understanding that you need to justify it to yourself and to others as the right thing for you. I think the alternative, which is the truth, is too horrific to contemplate.

That none of this was necessary, and attempting to become like the opposite sex is a dangerous, hopeless, damaging and desperately unnecessary life path.

There have been discussions on here about peak trans and anti- peak trans moments. I ping pong between the 2. Barracker's post is a new anti- peak trans moment for me.

I will concede that it's brave to publicly go somewhat against the trans narrative, but this smacks to me of someone who simply thinks they're "true trans" which makes them higher status than those who cross-dress or don't medically trans.

Also, I'm deeply disturbed about sex by deception, as admitted here. That's still a crime, isn't it? I know Stonewall have other ideas, but the men this person slept with, could not actually consent if they didn't know who they were giving consent to. It reminds me of this:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/gayle-newland-found-guilty-at-retrial-of-tricking-female-friend-into-sex

Are you referring to loos, changing rooms ? Where do you think she should go. She looks like a woman and has had full surgery

It's not just toilets and changing rooms it's women's sports, hospital wards and prisons.

It's impossible to tell if someone will pass to all women in all situations. And it's impossible to tell what, if any surgery they have had.

Yes, Margueritapink, I know, you hate my posts, you've said before.
You've also anti peak transed before.

So it seems that even when a man says he's ok with calling me a man, and even if I am genuinely horrified at what has been done to him and how his life and health has been damaged, and have real sympathy with his condition, if I take him up on his offer to be truthful yet respectful, you'd still like to hold me up as some kind of example of how WRONG I am to call a man, a man, even when he has already invited me to.

I can no more pretend not to recognise him as a male than I can pretend not to recognise you, Margueritapink, as someone who has enjoyed taking a pop at me under a previous username.

What about my post is so objectionable?
That I can tell he's male?
That I took him up on his offer to 'call me a man'?
That I think it's horrific that a gay boy who was bullied and later sectioned took illegal hormones at 14, and was suicidal?
That I think it wrong he has sex with straight men who believe him to be female?

Go ahead, antipeaktrans. Whatever you think that means.
You cannot prevent this awful bloody 'Turing treatment' happening to other young gay boys if you can't even bring yourself to admit it's wrong when faced with an example such as this one.

I'll live with your disapproval.

I will concede that it's brave to publicly go somewhat against the trans narrative

I'm not sure from the interviews that Garcia does go against 'trans narrative' not least in the affirmation of children.

In the Telegraph article Garcia's early childhood trauma is described.
(extract)
"around eight months old, Garcia was found on the streets, orphaned and starving, with a four-year-old boy, thought to be her brother. The two were separated and sent to the Ciudad del Niño orphanage, where Garcia was adopted by her mother, a lecturer at the University of Chile, and father, a mechanical engineer, who already had three biological sons."

Shortly after being adopted Garcia's had to flee Pinochet's regime.

The impact of Garcia's adoptive father views towards sex-based stereotypes expectations of boys and homosexuality were likely very significant.

Garcia concludes,

"Pivotal to everything were Garcia’s understanding parents. “It’s very important to listen to children about how they feel,” she says. “If I had a child who was five or six and I could tell they were unhappy in themselves, they were playing with the opposite sex’s toys, I would send them to a psychiatrist or give them someone to speak to.”

cf recent concerns of Tavistock GIDS professionals reported in Times article
'Staff at trans clinic fear damage to children as activists pile on pressure'

(extract)
"The report was compiled late last year by David Bell, then staff governor, whose role was to present staff concerns. It says some children “take up a trans identity as a solution” to “multiple problems such as historic child abuse in the family, bereavement . . . homophobia and a very significant incidence of autism spectrum disorder” after being “coached” online and by trans activist groups.

The true histories of “highly disturbed or complex” child patients were not properly explored by Gids clinicians struggling with “huge and unmanageable caseloads” and afraid of being accused of transphobia if they questioned the “rehearsed” surface presentation. The report says the concerns voiced by staff are shared by Sonia Appleby, who is in charge of safeguarding at the trust.

Some youngsters were referred for puberty-blocking hormones — which are usually followed at 16 by cross-sex hormones causing irreversible change and lower fertility — after just one session, the report says. The trust denied this.

Examples of cases in the report include a girl from a family with a history of abuse of females. The mother’s anxiety about having a daughter was transmitted to her child, who resolved to change gender. Another girl felt “deeply guilty” after her brother died tragically, so she decided to give her parents “their son back” by changing gender. Some openly homophobic parents sought transition for their children because they were gay." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/staff-at-trans-clinic-fear-damage-to-children-as-activists-pile-on-pressure-c5k655nq9

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3509817-Times-16-2-1-9-Staff-at-trans-clinic-fear-damage-to-children

Hence the "somewhat"! I honestly don't think he's saying anything that needs applauding, just acknowledging that he said enough that TRAs will disagree with, to warrant excommunication.

It is a familiar tale though, isn't it? Childhood trauma, sex-based stereotypes, a parent who would probably prefer a straight daughter than a gay son, mental illness etc. Honestly, I'm really struggling with the sex by deception.

"Until then, Garcia is keen to play a parent on screen. “When you cast a transgender woman who happens to be a mother, people will start looking at it for what it is: normal.” "

Autogynephilia .. right there!

Are you referring to loos, changing rooms ? Where do you think she should go. She looks like a woman and has had full surgery

Ah. So you're taking the "passing" threshold then?

What about the ones who think they pass but don't?

What about my post is so objectionable?

You actually are denying her right to exist as a trans woman. There are frequent protestations on here that the accusations by trans activists that gc feminists are denying the right of trans people to exist are not true. But that is what you are doing by diagnosing she is really a gay man.

from the Daily Mail interview:

'Eventually, they listened. They told my parents, "this child WILL kill himself"' and she was sectioned for her own protection.

'I was furious, but with hindsight it was the best thing that happened. I got a diagnosis, an explanation for why I was different.'

At 14, she started taking female hormones; 'They were 100 per cent illegal,' she says, procured via older people in the trans community."

There are serious safeguarding and duty of care faiings described here.
The article focuses on Garcia's size, femininity and this seems to also matter to Garcia.

Its important to recognise the various contributory factors. Illegal drugs supplied by adults to a very vulnerable 14 year old should be the cause for concern, not celebration.

You actually are denying her right to exist as a trans woman

Oh, look. We're playing TRA bingo.

Agree with MargueritaPink even when trans people bravely speak out in support of woman (which is what we’re always saying they should do!) they’re still thrown under the bus just for wanting to live as a transwoman by the same few posters. I never comment usually on FWR but it’s pretty disgusting to read sometimes.

Good on her for speaking up and I hope she doesn’t get too much abuse from TRA for it.

Nobody can change sex.

There's no such thing as "good trans" and "bad trans" that one could ever legislate for - you can't say nice men can become women but nasty ones can't. That's ludicrous. And I regard it as highly patronising to say that one would confer "good trans" status on a person because they say things one would like to hear.

Saying that we can pretend some male people are women is the Trojan horse that led us to where we are now. Besides, womanhood is not a favour to be granted by some women over other women's wishes.

You actually are denying her right to exist as a trans woman

Oh come off it. It really isn't like you to make that sort of logic fail, MP.
Direct quote from that article:
I'm as close to being a woman as I can possibly get. But I wasn't born a woman, and when I die my body will be that of a man because, realistically, my skeleton is a man's.
'But I'm not bothered what words people use. Call me a woman. Call me a man. Just give me respect. All I want is a bit of respect.'

Baptiste is one of the sensible transwomen who know that they are, and always will be, men. And in this case, same-sex attracted ie gay. Saying Baptiste is a gay man is not in any way incompatible with being a transwoman, with every right to exist as such.

I don’t think talisa cares if you think she’s a man, I just think it’s pretty vile trying to put her down further or telling her to shut up because she’s a transwoman and therefore use woman’s facilities.
A lot of people (myself included) are concerned about self ID and the impact of the wider trans umbrella but have no issue with genuine transsexual people getting on with their lives and having an opinion.

Oh, look. We're playing TRA bingo

You (general you) gender critical feminists might want to think about this. The Daily Mail regularly reports on trans issues. It does so in a relatively neutral way leaving its readers to make up their own minds.

The DM has had a bit of reassessment on MN in the last 18 months. It has gone from being the lefty favourite figure to hate to the acknowledgement that occasionally it speaks sense. Its reporting of issues that women and children is better than the Guardian's.

The DM readers are virtually unanimous in their rejection of trans extremes such as mixed toilets, trans women in male prisons, trans women in sport etc. That's a large section of mainstream UK opinion on your side. However the comments on this article (when I last checked) were all supportive.

You (general you again) are of course free to stick your hardline gc views and risk alienating supporters.

I've not read the comments in the mail, I don't care how many people disagree with me, I don't support vulnerable (or any) children being given illegal drugs.

I know the definition of women is adult human female, regardless of what the comments say in any newspaper.

I know that women and girls need and want sex segregation, regardless of the life stories of male transpeople.

It reminds me of a comment an Irish friend of mine made (early 90s, Troubles still ongoing). "There is no neutral language. As soon as you refer to a certain town as 'Derry' or 'Londonderry', you've picked a side."

Indeed! My daughter lives in the NI border village or Roslea (Irish spelling) but if you spell it Rosslea (the official spelling) you're dead! smile. All the shops, pubs etc call it Roslea but the village sign is Rosslea, with the second S scratched out.

Vocabulary matters. I will never call a man "she/her", not even to be polite.

I take a different meaning from those stories. Northern Ireland is a case study in the harm that entrenched, uncompromising commitment to one side of a dispute can cause. I think we can listen to and respect those we disagree with, without giving up our position.

Brava that transwoman! I agree. I think it's a brave thing to come out like that, when you don't have to. I also think it's a brave thing to criticise the Butlerian Jihadis- very few public figures are willing to do so.

That said, from the article:

do I get cross when people refuse to see me as a 'real' woman? No. That is their right. We have freedom of thought and freedom of speech in this country.

The women who wouldn't call her her, even as a courtesy, have made that decision because of the huge ground given up to Butlerism in a short space of years. That is not the same as wanting to deny people rights, intimidate or persecute them.

We don't all need to agree on everything.

from the Daily Mail,
She says there was no discernible moment when she realised she was a girl trapped in a boy's body. It's more that there was never a moment when she didn't feel female.

'It's hard to describe, but my head never matched my body, and I still think it's easier to operate on your body, because you can't operate on your brain."

This is the narrative which has been absorbed and is being promoted by the media and in schools by TRAs and organisations such as Mermaids Charity.

This framework of understanding was created and offered by a small group of doctors- surgeons who offered 'sex change' operations and psychologists such as Dr Domenico DiCeglie who founded the 'Gender Identity Development Service' (Tavistock GIDS)

from GIDS website:
You founded the Gender Identity Development Service. What gave you the idea to do so?

"I was inspired to start the Gender Identity Development Service in 1989 by an encounter with a teenager, who was assigned female at birth, who perceived himself to be male. I saw him for exploratory psychotherapy in the mid-80s following three overdoses. In one of the sessions he wondered why his parents had not understood his situation when he was a child and sought professional help and support. This started my thinking about setting up a specialist service for this group of young people"

gids.nhs.uk/who-we-are/domenico-diceglie

SO how should society look after people like Talisa ? Is treating them like a man, so Male toilets , expecting to only apply for male roles, going to repair the damage or push them out of society and deepen their problems ?

I've no idea. This is a feminist board, concentrating on the rights of women and girls.

I don't believe that any solution should
mean that women and girls lose their much needed and wanted rights to sex segregated spaces.